Transcript:
Robert: (tape starts abruptly) …who come to a meeting like this, one will return and become a disciple. Out of every five disciples that come, one will become a devotee. This type of meeting is not for everyone because it hits you hard in the ego. It makes you feel that your anger, your doubts, your suspicions, your frustrations, your jealousies, your pettiness do not exist. They’ve been haunting you for years and it’s up to you to get rid of them. It makes you realize that your possessions, your thought of ownership, taking care of yourself, your idea of God, your idea of the world of the universe, of your job, of your loved ones are all nonsense. Most people do not like to hear this. People like to be told things that they’re used to. You like to be told you’ll go far in life. You’ll become a successful accountant or a nurse. You’ll make a lot of money. You’ll have a good family. But this is not that type of a world. We have a wrong conception of the world in which we live. You see, what difference does it make, what happens to you, if you do not realize who you are? And I’m not just speaking of dry knowledge. I know most of you here have read every book that’s ever been written. But it’s all dry knowledge. The whole idea is to make this a living embodiment of consciousness. And most people do not want to waste their effort to do this. They’re used to buying something, they pay their cash and they get their goods, here in the West. This it not how it works. The first step in spiritual awakening is to realize you’re divinely ignorant, and that’s not an insult. I have had people walk out when I’ve said this. That’s why I say, “divinely ignorant.” With all humility you must realize this first of all. That you are divinely ignorant. Which means that you don’t really understand anything. All your conceptual ideas. All your preconceived ideas. Everything you’ve learnt as a boy or as a girl. All the ideas and feelings and emotions that you grew up with, are basically wrong. They’re all erroneous and they must be transcended. The only way to begin to transcend this is to admit to yourself, “I am divinely ignorant and I really do no know what anything is. I really know nothing. I don’t know what anything is.” As an example: We don’t know what a human being is. We have no idea what it is. It just appears at birth and we take it for granted. We don’t know what a dog is. Where did it come from? How did it arrive? We know that it has four legs and it’s a dog, so we give it a name, dog. Like someone gave you the name Mark, Ed or Mary. But what are these things for real? We don’t know what a tree is. We gave it a name tree, but what is it really? It has leaves. Some trees produce oranges, some trees produce grapefruits. Why? What’s its purpose? Where did it come from originally? And what came first, the tree or the seed? We don’t know, we have no idea. We don’t know what the sun is, or the moon, or the stars. Oh we can figure out is what they do, to keep us warm, the sun does. But we have no idea what it really is, why it exists? Why does anything exist? Why do we exist? We have no idea. But we’re brought up in a world of effects and we begin to respond to the effects of the world at an early age. We develop traits of jealousy, anger, mistrust, envy, fear, all these feelings are developed at an early age. And we don’t know why? We act accordingly, we cause problems for ourselves. We try to solve them and we spend all of our lives solving problems. Before you know it we turn around, we’re eighty, ninety years old, it’s time to go, where are we? We have no idea. And those of us who think we’ve accomplished something materialistically. We think we’re doing good deeds. We’ve become successful in business, in world affairs and politics. Yet we have to leave it all behind, everything we worked so hard for. Nothing remains. When it’s time to leave the body, everything goes, and we’re alone. Therefore doesn’t it make sense that we should search for the answers of life. What is life all about? Doesn’t that make sense to go after that, for if we find that we will become free. But if we keep involving ourselves in our affairs, gain, loss, happy, sad, sick, healthy and so forth, we’re wasting our precious time. It is true, as long as you believe that you are the body, you’re going to be reborn again and again and again. And you will be reborn to parents that you left off. In other words, before you die, if there’s such a thing, if you’re filled with doubt and anger and animosity and greed and jealousy and whatever, you’re going to be reborn to parents with those qualities. And you will have those qualities again. You will have to work them out. But the ultimate truth is, that nothing I’m talking about is real. It is only for those deluded people who believe that they are the body. Reincarnation does not exist. Rebirth does not exist. Death does not exist. All these negative qualities I told you about do not exist. But as long as you believe your body is for real these qualities will come to you, they come to everyone who believe they are the body. It behooves you therefore, to stop reading so many books. To stop running around to so many teachers and so many meetings. I’m not trying to tell you to come here all the time. What I’m trying to tell you is this; Find a teaching that is suitable for you at your stage of development. Whether it’s one of the major religions or Buddhism or whatever it may be. If that’s what you’re into, practice, practice, practice and become a living embodiment of the teaching. But going around from teacher to teacher, going around from meeting to meeting and not practicing anything will get you nowhere. Think about this. My own personal experiences probably have come to me because in a last life or somewhere before I took on this body, which doesn’t exist, I must have practiced intense sadhana. Otherwise why would I be born and see a figure of Ramana Maharshi when I was a baby? Why would I be drawn to India? And why would I have personal experiences, when my individuality was lost and I merged into infinite consciousness? I didn’t ask for these experiences. I didn’t ask to be sitting here today. Everything just happens. Whatever is happening in your experiences, do not fight them. You may say, “But Robert, my experience is terrible.” It makes no difference, do not fight your experiences. Merely observe them, watch them, do not react to them. Do nothing. Oh, your body will do whatever it has to do. But do not react to your anger. Do not react to your doubt. Change your mind as fast as possible. When doubt comes to you, when anger comes to you, when fear comes to you, do not entertain it. But start doing a mantra. Sing a spiritual song. Do japa. Do whatever you have to do to get rid of the situation at the moment. And then go on with your deeper spiritual practices. But do not entertain fears, doubts, anger. The best way is of course is to ask yourself, “To whom does this come? Who is angry?” And something will come and something will say, “Me!” in anger. Hold onto that me. Don’t let go of it. Find out its source. Where did it arise? Who gave it birth? If you truly follow it to its source, you will find that anger never existed. It’s okay, it doesn’t matter. No one can hurt you, unless you’re hurtable. Makes no difference what everybody says or what they do or what you believe you see them doing, that’s not the problem. The problem is your reaction. Feeling that something is wrong. What can be wrong? If you knew who you were, you would laugh. The whole world would become laughable. So all I can do for you is to confess my experiences. And when I use the pronoun I. I’m referring to consciousness, to omnipresence. Everything becomes the Self when I say, “I.” That includes everybody here. So I confess to you, that I am not the body or mind. I am not any experience. I am not the world. I am not anything that you can see, touch, taste, smell or feel. I am absolute reality. I am consciousness. I am infinite intelligence. I am satchitananda. I am nirvana, emptiness. I am love, pure awareness, joy, bliss. I Am That I Am. That is the truth about I, about you, about me and there’s nothing else. Become joyful, rejoice. Stay centered. Yesterday never existed. Tomorrow will never come. The only moment you have is this moment now. What you think about yourself now, determines what happens to you tomorrow. So why play games. As I said, stop reading books. Stop going to meetings so much. Spend time with yourself. When in satsang, find your Self. Know who you are and you will be the happiest person on earth. Everything is consciousness, everything. Everything is consciousness. The reason that some of us can’t feel it, is because we’re wrapped up in ourselves. I don’t mean your real Self, I mean our ego selves. We’re so wrapped up in our affairs, and we’re so wrapped up in trying to become enlightened that we never will. It’s not a question of trying to become enlightened. Do you know in reality there’s no such word. What’s enlightened? What’s self-realization? They’re concepts, they’re words. There’s no such word. So what we’re trying to become is something that doesn’t exist. How can we ever become it? What exists you are already. What doesn’t exist you never can become. What do you think you are? You can tell by your thinking patterns. What do you think most of the day? As an example: What did you think about this morning as soon as you opened your eyes. Were you worried about breakfast? Were you concerned with getting too fat or too thin? Were you concerned over your hair or over another person? Were you thinking about your neighbors trying to hurt you? Or someone cheated you? Or somebody stole something from you ten years ago you can’t get it out of your mind? What do you think about all day long? This is what keeps you back. You must learn to catch yourself. Whenever some conditions arises, catch yourself, by asking yourself, “To whom does it come?” Even if you have to do this a thousand times a day. It’s okay. It’s better than thinking the thoughts you do think a thousand times a day. Isn’t it? Catch yourself, “To whom does it come?” To me? Hold on to the me, “What is me? Who is me?” Ask yourself. Follow the me to the source. Ask yourself how the me arose? Where did it come from to begin with? Then your mind will become still, maybe for only a few seconds and then another thought will come. Practice the same procedure, “To whom does this come?” And you can do other things. You can ask yourself, “What difference does it make, what happens to me? In reality I am eternal, immortal. In reality I was never born, can never die. So what difference does the appearance make at this time. I seem to be going through whatever I’m supposed to go through karmically. Why should I fight it?” When you stop fighting you have won the battle. For when you have stop fighting, your mind becomes calm once again. And when your mind becomes calm you automatically become your real Self. Then you forget trying to become self-realized, trying to become enlightened. You forget about those terms. You simply abide in your Self. That’s all you’ve got to do. And your Self means a quiet mind, that’s the definition of your Self. A quiet, still mind. When your mind is quiet you have bliss, you have love, you have compassion, you have Jnana, wisdom. When your mind is noisy you have doubts, suspicions, anger, greed, jealousy. It’s up to you. It makes no difference how deep those samskaras are, those tendencies. Weed them out one by one, by asking yourself, “To whom they come?” and by following the Ithread to its culmination and you will be free. Yesterday I received an interesting gift in the mail from New York, these jogging shoes. And I didn’t know who sent them, I didn’t remember their name. But I also received a letter and I remember this guy. He used to come to the meetings before he came here, when we were at Jeff’s. He came to about six meetings. He always used to sit in the back he’d hardly say anything. It’s amazing what satsang does for a person. And he wrote me one of the profoundest letters I’ve ever written, I’ve ever seen or read and I’ve read many. And I want to share this with you because I think it’s important. I don’t know why he said to me to share this. His name is Andy Kincart, he’s a friend of Richards. He’s from Santa Cruz but he’s living in Mahopac, New York. It starts here and continues here, Mary would you like to read it? Read it slowly. Try to really understand what he’s saying. Mary reads; “Dear Robert, seeing this card brought you to mind, however when I bought it I had no idea it said anything about a birthday inside. Consider it a metaphorical paradox. Never being born, I am born in each moment. I haven’t been in touch with you in a while. So just to let you know who is writing this, I spoke with you several times on the phone over the past six months or so, after attending a couple of meetings at Jeffery’s apartment back in April. I’m not sure why I’m writing you now, I have nothing specific to say. I feel like a great reel of opening up has taken place recently and yet nothing has really changed at all. The main gist of it is, that the Self is being continually revealed as absolutely inescapable. This entire world of appearance is nothing, but an expression of the Self. Bondage or liberation, suffering or bliss there is no distinction in the light of the truth. I mean, whether this body-mind is identified or not, it is still consciousness and nothing else. Consciousness is all there is. The form that it takes on in this incredibly diverse world is irrelevant. Exactly, what does realization mean? When everything is already the Self. The Self realizes itself in all forms of existence. I really must say that I don’t care if Andy kincart continues to be caught up in this conceptual world of appearance. I know even if I forget that I am one with God and that everything that happens is His will, it cannot be otherwise. God is everything. I guess the most concise way of expressing it in words is that it is a matter of seeing, that nothing exists independently. The real substance of anything is void. Even this sounds pathetically limiting. The freedom of understanding is the absence of all identification. I can’t even say, “Netineti.” Who says it? I don’t know Robert it just feels like if there is an understanding that brings about enlightenment, it really doesn’t change a thing. Except, maybe that there’s just nothing to resist anymore. There is no one to gain or lose anything. Everything is one. Concepts are so boring. Ironically enough, despite the feeling lately that there is nothing to say or hear about the truth, I’ve been spontaneously writing down, what might be called observations. That keep popping up lately. I’ll include some of this letter, for your entertainment. If you feel so inclined to look at them. Otherwise I just want to share a feeling of quiet gratefulness. Not for or to anything in particular, just peaceful thanks, Andy. PS: I’ll be in New York until around November 1st. At which time I plan to leave for Taiwan, although that keeps getting delayed. I’ll send you a postcard, you can write to this address, and it will be forwarded if I’m not here.” And the address is in New York. Robert: Now what did you think of that? SM: It’s very nice. R: The reason I’m sharing it with you is because I want you to realize that this comes from the heart. It does not come from book learning I can tell. I can pick up an article and tell you where it’s from. Whether it’s from a persons heart, from his consciousness or whether it’s from a book. This comes straight from the heart. Any comments? SK: It’s interesting, he started expressing and talking and after a while he seemed like drooling a little bit in words and then he came back into expression again. SM: You can tell it’s straight from the heart. You can feel it, even reading it I could feel what he was saying. (SK: Not only from the heart it’s surcharged with energy.) R: He has a PHD in English, and he teaches English overseas. SA: I don’t know, I must cast a descending vote. (R: Okay.) Just to stir things up in my usual role. (R: Good.) First of all I find that there is a very strong tendency on the part of the disciple or adherence or students tend to mouth, to repeat the teachings of the teacher. (R: Yes.) There is a very strong tendency of that sort especially if you know the people and you get to hear these things that you heard from the teacher. And I kind of that about it and as I heard it, it seemed to me like such an intellectualization of the divine flow. You can say that what I’m about to say is that I’m sinking into materiality. But it seemed to me that these are also words, these are material words, these are ideas. What if he just said, “Oh the sun was intensely hot this morning. I felt tremendous hunger. I ate meat I loved the meat. I wanted to hike to the top of the mountain etc. etc.” It seems to me that this would’ve expressed the sense of oneness, the sense of desire for the one, more than these intellectualizations. R: Well that’s your opinion of course, and I appreciate it. But remember Arnold, he’s speaking from his own experiences, I can tell. What you’re speaking of is good also. It depends on the person, depends who they are and also depends on how you perceive it. But it’s your perception and that’s good. What else can I say. (SA: I can try to be more argumentative if that’s what I could try.) I’m not going to give you an argument. (SA: No.) SM: Maybe it was the way I read it. But if he were here and he said it in his own words from his heart then it would be more emphatic, it would be more feeling, I’m only reading somebody else’s words. SA: I don’t think it’s the way you read it. I don’t think that, no, you read very well. R: Now I remember Kincart and he’s a very sincere person. (SA: Well I’m not saying he wasn’t. I think that he is sincere but it just seems to me that the mental element dominates rather than the spirit of the one.) Well this is his confession. This is the way he feels. To me it’s just shear beauty. But it’s an interesting comment. Any other comments. SR: I just want to say, off the topic, but I thought Mary did a very good job in presenting it in a very clean, understandable way. (R: Yes.) (SM: Thank you.) SB: What moved me was I liked when he said, the only thing that’s different now is that there’s no resistance and that seems to be the essence of the whole thing. Before he was being a me, having his own will, having his own trying to be enlightened or wanting, and now he doesn’t know anything and there’s no resistance to – he said absence of all identification, like lost in ignorance and no resistance to anything anymore. (R: That’s a good observation also, true.) The ego is always a resistance to that divine ignorance. SR: I also thought it was unselfish, it wasn’t asking you a question like leaving points so that you would return something. (R: Yes.) It was totally selfless, I thought. (R: Yes that’s true too.) (SM: From the heart.) SA: What I’m talking about, I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but… (R: Beat a dead horse!) Okay, somehow after I spoke, what came to my mind was memories of Japan and I’m thinking of the way of the teahouse. The way the tea is served, of course there’s many examples. The tea ceremony thing, I remember the fences walking down the little alleys. (R: Umm.) The care that we know they give to everything without anything being said. You could spend a day in a Zen monastery or in a Sheng temple. Nothing need be said because it’s all there. It’s expressed in every gesture, every movement, just as with the tea ceremony and so it’s ineffable. It’s beyond words. (R: Yes.) And that’s a very moving experience, if you approach it that way. R: Are you suggesting he should’ve sent me a blank card? (SA: He should’ve what?) Sent me a blank card.? (SA: It would’ve been more original I think. I would say yes.) It says happy birthday. (laughs) No that’s your opinion again and I respect your opinion. But he’s coming from a different place. It’s his feelings, his emotions, his self expressing. SK: The letter seems to be like a mirror and everyones reflecting on themselves. (R: Of course, that’s why I asked.) I realize that, I feel excited about the whole concept. R: You see whatever you tell me comes from your own experience from your own consciousness. So you’re talking about yourself, whatever you say. I shouldn’t say that or you won’t say anything. (laughter) Okay now what would you like me to talk about. SB: Robert, if consciousness is all there is, right then consciousness would have to be prior to our awakened state, so it has to be even similar to even deep sleep state. R: Yes, the difference between consciousness and deep sleep, is in deep sleep you are not conscious. In consciousness you’re aware of what’s going on. But in deep sleep you’re in the natural state but you’re not conscious. (SB: But if consciousness is all there is, why are we losing consciousness in deep sleep, why is that?) You’re not losing consciousness. You’re just not conscious, because you’re in deep sleep. It’s another state of ignorance. (SB: So when enlightenment occurs even in deep sleep there won’t be loss of consciousness?) When enlightenment occurs you will not be in deep sleep. (SB: So we’re in deep sleep because we’re…) Because you’re not aware. But that’s the closest thing to realization. (SB: Is that because the mind is still kind of alive and functioning.) It’s because you’re dead to the world and you’re dead to everything. And the mind is functioning as deep sleep. (SB: The mind is functioning as…) As deep sleep. (SB: And when everything is understood and the mind is transcended then…) Then there’s pure awareness… (SB: Then there’s no deep sleep.) No, there’s just pure awareness. SK: There’s no thoughts either, the brain is functioning but the thoughts aren’t, in deep sleep. (R: That’s true, yes.) SR: Robert I just wanted to share with you a feeling I had when I came to your first talk. I thought that what you said for me was the absolute truth. But when I went home and woke up the next morning I felt such anger and in fact I shared it with Ed. A frustration that, in fact I renewed my ambition to accomplish things because I felt – I guess the trouble I had was, that is true, but we do have a role to play, apparently there is a game to play and I accept the fact that when you play a game you have to play it. With all the rules that are there, you don’t have to believe that it’s real but you have to play it. And I don’t want to rot away and have a nihilistic attitude toward life, because I get a pleasure out of certain things. The acquisition of little things that I enjoy reading about and studying, it’s just mind things, or writing, or producing. Accomplishing is actually is just as pleasurable, if not more, than sitting quietly and meditating and going to that silence. I do know what you say down deep, is correct, I know it’s the truth. But as long as we’re in this little game, this eighty year game that we play, seventy, eighty years, I feel that I’m not taking advantage of those senses, those things that are stuck in this body of mine that do give me little jolts of pleasure. And maybe I misread what you said. I miss the joy and the love and the embracing of nature, life, people, music, all that’s there. R: That’s a good question, let’s go to your first point: You were angry. That’s exactly what your mind wants you to be. When a person hears truth for the first time, or to hear the higher truth, the mind is going to begin to fight. It does not want to be annihilated. It will fight you at every turn. And things may get progressively worse in the beginning, mentally. Now when you understand what’s going on, you simply observe that condition. And that’s the ego fighting you, that’s the first one I heard now here’s the second part. Nobody tells you that when you become realized you will stop doing everything or anything. If you’re a painter, you will become a better painter. If you’re a sculpture, you’ll be a better sculpture. You will feel joy and bliss. But you have to bear in mind that you are not the doer. And whatever your body is supposed to do in this incarnation it’s going to do. It has nothing to do with you. Therefore you will lose nothing. If you enjoy nature like you said. You will enjoy it a thousand times greater. Because you’ll have a better understanding where it comes from, it comes from you. It’s the Self and you’ll feel greater bliss. So you lose nothing and you gain everything. It’s not a question of giving up, it’s a question of gaining. The body in itself is very limited. When you realize who you really are, you become omnipresent. And you enjoy things a million times more. Everything becomes more intense, more real. But you understand where it’s coming from. You understand the reality. And you can say, “All of this is the Self and I am That!” And that becomes very clear to you. SR: But if it’s true it’s all an illusion anyway then that is sort of what’s the point of it all? R: The point is you’re playing a game like you said. You realize it’s an illusion, but you’re still playing your part. (SR: Okay.) That’s like you take a step backward and you watch. As if you’re watching a movie. But yet you’re in the movie also. So you’re apart from the movie and you’re in the movie, you’re both. So you can be totally free and unattached, but you’re still doing the work. (SR: I guess the word I’m looking for is permission to play the game. Playing the game is okay to do, even if you know it’s a game.) But remember, you have nothing to do with it. (SR: Well the Self is playing a game with me and I’m involved.) If you search for the Self, you’ll transcend the personality. The personality becomes totally transcended and merges in the Self or in consciousness. And then you play the game in a different way, but you play the game. Nobody said you’re going to go to a cave and meditate for the rest of your life. You’ll be active and you’ll keep playing the game but it’ll be different. SK: It seems that the ego enjoys personally certain things and I think when you transcend the ego and the personal enjoyment, you can enjoy that same thing but on a universal level and the enjoyment is increased and it’s not so the ego is fighting for that personal enjoyment. It seems to me. (R: That’s true too.) Another point, sometimes it seems that when you’re going through this stuff, that you may find or some people find that they get detached or uninvolved in the things that they have been involved in for a temporary amount of time. And then when something happens, some change happens and they go back into whatever it was spontaneously there’s much more enjoyment and much more enthusiasm and what not. R: Yes but the main point remember is this: In the beginning stages all your negativity might get worse. You might become more angry, more doubtful, more suspicious, more hateful and remember why. It’s your ego fighting you at every turn, saying, “Don’t go along with this teaching.” (SK: Because you will to lose everything.) Yes. The ego does not wish to be annihilated. So in the beginning it will fight you at every turn. But don’t fight back, by reacting. Simply observe and watch and ask yourself, “To whom is this happening?” and you’ll find out. That’s all you’ve got to do. SR: I’ve been angry before over things like this. (laughter) R: That’s a good sign. There’s a name for that, it’s called chemicalization. There are changes taking place inside of you and everything is coming to the surface, to be totally transcended. So do not pay attention to those feelings. Ignore them by asking yourself, “To whom do they come?” and they’ll go away. They will become weaker and weaker every time you ask the question. They will become weaker and weaker until they’re gone. It happens to nearly everyone. (tape break as Robert continues) R: …appear to go to certain levels. (SM: Robert, do we go through those certain levels to reach that point to awaken?) Sometimes you appear to go through certain levels. But in reality you just awaken. There’s a story about the Buddha, when he decided to go under the Bodhi tree and sit there for thirty days until he was enlightened, not for thirty days, he was just going to sit under the tree until something happened. He’d either die or awaken. So after about thirty days, his disciples were sitting around and they saw him opening his eyes and he was shining. And they said, “Master what happened to you? Have you seen God?” And he said, “No,” “Have you become self-realized?” he said, “no” and they asked him all kinds of questions and he answered, “No”. So finally in unison they said, “What happened?” and he smiled and he said, “I’m awake!” It’s the same with us. We appear to go through stages and then one day we just (flicks fingers) wake up! As if we’ve been asleep for years. Think of the times when you have a long dream or a recurring dream over and over. And the dream appears so real, and in the dream you’re trying to fight it and trying to go through all these experiences, but you can’t wake up. So you try all these spiritual practices and then you wake up. Everything is gone. It was only a dream. In the same way, one day we’ll wake up from this dream, same thing. See right now most of you believe, the things that you’re dreaming are for real. For example: When I received this pair of shoes, I didn’t feel the feeling of exhilaration or feeling of sadness, I just observed the shoes and said what nice shoes, and I wore them, that’s it. When I’m emerged in my own bliss, things do not make me blissful or happier. Things are just there to enjoy, to look, to see, to observe. But your own bliss never leaves you. For your true nature is bliss, that’s human nature. Everything else is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. So to you, the things that may appear bad may appear good to someone else. As an example: A man is allowed one wife and that’s good. But if you go to Arabia, you’re allowed three wives and that’s good. So that maybe bad to some of us here, but over there it’s good. Take another example: Let’s say if you go to the North Pole and you visit your friend who’s an Eskimo. The first thing that he’ll tell you to do is to sleep with his wife. It’s an honor. If you don’t he’ll be insulted. Now how many of you guys will let me sleep with your wife. You see what I mean. Nothing is either good or bad only thinking makes it so. So look at all the things that make you angry. It’s all nonsense, forget it and be happy. SK: I have a question. (R: Sure.) If the shoes came to you like in a package and they were dirty, grimy, smelt really bad and looked really bad. Would you think they were nice shoes or would you think that they were interesting shoes? R: I wouldn’t think they were good or bad, nice or not nice, I would just observe them. I’d look at them, if I felt like wearing them, I would, if I don’t I don’t. (SK: These you observed they were nice, I’m wondering if the other ones you would say, “These are interesting?”) I didn’t observe they were nice, I observed they were shoes. (SK: You said nice, so I thought…) What I meant, what I meant is I looked over them and examined them carefully, I never heard of the brand before and I just put them on. And everybody tells me what nice shoes. (SK: Mine are interesting. (laughter) My used ones.) Wait until you see the ones I used to wear before. They got a hole in the top, they were half worn out, the heels were gone. But everything is unfolding as it should. There are no mistakes, remember that. All is well, everywhere. Just the way it is. And remember the only reason that you get excited or mad is because your world is not turning the way you want, that’s all. But if you forget about your world and merge in consciousness, everything will be good. For instance you say, “My uncle died.” And you think that’s bad, but for him it’s good, because he’s free and he can continue his sojourn whatever he’s doing. But for you it’s bad. You inherit a million dollars, for you it’s good, for your neighbor it’s bad because she becomes jealous and she shoots you. (laughter) (SK: For the daughter it’s really good because she inherits it.) (laughter) Whoever inherited it, it’s good. (laughter) SB: But it just appears good. Maybe someone marries her for her money makes her miserable and shoots her. And it turns out to be bad. R: Of course, it goes on and on. It never stops. SL: It’s good for her when she gets shot. She’s released. (laughter) SB: But then she’s born again as a crocodile. (students laugh) R: But do you see why we should not react? (Students: Yeah.) Because we don’t know what’s good or bad. (SB: Because we don’t know what anything is.) Exactly. Nerada you’re awfully quiet today. (pause) SB: So Robert you just spontaneously abide in your divine ignorance without any teaching, without ever reading anything about spiritual life. R: No. Yes and no. (SB: That’s an exact answer, yes and no.) In the beginning I never read anything, later on I did. (SB: So before you read, you were abiding as divine ignorance?) Yes. I told a little story on Thursday what happened. SR: Robert, do you think when this human evolutionary cycle is over that maybe the end of it, I mean in the very very long scheme of things that whatever this experiment or whatever this is runs its course and this planet will go, and the human form will probably go with it, unless we’re blown over to a new burden or planet or something? R: Then we’ll come back again and everything will be repeated, until you wake up. (SR: I do hope there are other places.) In your mind, only in your mind. Your mind creates the other places. If you want to find out what going on in mars or venus or jupiter, go within yourself. Dive deep within yourself and you’ll find out. What you’ll actually find out is, these planets only exist because you do. What happens to them when you’re sleeping? In deep sleep they disappear, the world disappears. Nothing exists. SK: I don’t believe that. It’s like, if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, did it really fall? I don’t know if it fell, but it could’ve? R: Find out. Understand yourself and you’ll know, because if you create it mentally, there’s no noise. Except for the deluded people who hear noise. (SK: Excuse me?) Except for those deluded, who hear noises. Like most of the people, most of the population hear all kinds of noise, so for them it’s real. (SK: And if I don’t hear it?) Then it’s not real. But you’re creating it all, it’s coming out of your mind. When you’re asleep everything stops. There’s no world, there’s nothing. But when you wake up as it were… (SK: Yeah but I can observe someone in deep sleep.) No you can’t. (SK: I can’t?) When you’re in deep sleep? (SK: No, I can observe someone else in deep sleep?) That’s the answer. (SK: What answer is that?) They’re observing it through their mind. (SK: But concrete, relative world.) That’s what you’re seeing for a person in deep sleep. (SK: Yeah I have no way of knowing that, I really have no way of knowing.) Who wants to know though? (SK: I don’t know, you make a statement that I’m realizing that there is no way for me to know whether it is true or not.) Because your ego is seeing that so I say, “Dive deep within yourself and you’ll know.” As long as you’re speaking from external purposes, you can never know. (SK: Umm-hmm, that’s interesting.) SM: Robert these dreams are mental creations too right? R: Dreams are creations of the mind, of course. It makes no difference what kind of dream it is. Think of a dream. It’s externalized into a universe and it’s all taking place within yourself, in your mind. Yet you see a moon, you see the stars, you see the sun, you see people, you have experiences and it’s all taking place like it’s real. It’s happening in your mind. The world is the same way. It’s happening in your mind but you refuse to accept that. You think these things are real and you suffer accordingly. Ed? SE: In response to Jay’s question. One of the biggest changes for me was to change from believing that I was a body with consciousness inside of it to finding that I was consciousness that contains the body. (R: Yes.) And that when you see that point of view the body is no longer real, it’s like anything else out there is part of it and that you’re all of consciousness. When you have the first view the world is real. When you’re consciousness the body’s not real. (R: That’s a good point.) It’s just an object in consciousness. R: Everything is consciousness and everything that appears as forms are taking place in consciousness. All this is Brahman. SK: What about if I’m sitting here and my consciousness seems like it’s not separate from other consciousness, yet still I somehow have a frame of reference, when here. R: Who has the frame of reference? (SK: I don’t know who has it but…) The ego does. (SK: Okay.) You’re talking about ego things. When you get rid of the ego there will be no frame of reference. (SK: So if you get rid of the ego totally, there’s no frame of reference?) There’s no frame of reference. (SK: So there’s nothing to do with this body, I mean I’m not even aware it’s here?) When? (SK: If there’s no ego?) If there’s no ego, you will be aware but in a different way. (SK: Will I be aware of all bodies?) In a different way, you’ll realize, all bodies are the Self and you are that. SK: Yeah but still I’m coming from a different… (SX: Your perspective.) I can perceive that but I’m coming from here. R: But that’s intellectually. (SK: Right.) But the other way is spiritually, it’s different. It’s coming from the point of the Self. I realize that I am the Self. But I am includes you. You are my Self. (SK: There’s no here or there with you, none at all?) That’s why when I see you, I see my Self as consciousness. I can only see you as I see my Self. (SK: But there still seems to be a here and there?) To who? (SK: To you?) No. (SK: There’s no here or there.) No here, there is just one. (SK: Just one?) And that’s you! (SK: That’s me?) (laughter) R: Be still and know that I am God. SL: Robert for me it seems like there’s something very scary about that whole prospect or feeling and thinking that I am God. R: No, I am is your ego you’re referring to. Your personal individual I am, is not God. But I-Am is God. See the difference? (SL: Yeah.) You are not God the way you appear to be, but your real Self is God. So when you say, “I am God,” you are not referring to yourself as a body. You’re speaking to the real you, which you can’t see as you. Do you see? SL: I also feel, that I find that when I stay with myself quietly for any length of time I become frightened, I get scared of that and I have to reach out or get back in touch with — or get out of myself. (R: Yes.) I don’t know what I’m afraid of though? R: Well those are all samskaras. Past tendencies coming up on you. What you should do is observe them and ask, “From where do they come?” and “To whom do they come? What gave them birth? Who is their father and their mother?” They come from nothing and they return to nothing when you see it correctly. But if you agree with them, if you feel them, if you adhere in them then they become real for you. So as soon as you begin to feel fear, immediately catch yourself and ask the question, “To whom does the fear come?” and wait. And the answer will be, “It comes to me,” as soon as the answer comes, “it comes to me,” immediately abide in the me. Start feeling the me or you can start saying to yourself, “I – I, I – I.” I is the first name of God. You’re calling upon your real nature, which is greater than the fear. And the fear will dissipate, try it! SR: Robert if there’s only one Self, then how is it that one person can be realized and another person can be in ignorance? R: Because nobody’s really realized. That’s just a word. There’s only the understanding that all this is the Self. Everything that’s going on anywhere is the Self in expression. I am that Self! Just like the dream, I am the dream. Am I not? Because I’m dreaming about everybody. I’m dreaming about the class, I’m dreaming about the world and about the universe. So I can say I am that dream. I see you in the same way. You are my Self and there’s only me. But you see two or three or four or multiples. So you’ve got the problem not me. (laughs) Because you insist on seeing multiples. See your Self and you’ll see me as your Self. There’s only one Self, does that make sense? (SR: Yeah it makes sense.) SE: It sounds sort of like it depends on whether you take the position of Krishna or Arjuna. Whether you take the position of the absolute or whether you take the position of what Arjuna was, a Jiva Mukta, a Jiva, individual self. (R: Yes.) Now when you’re only awareness, nothing is. But when you don’t have awareness there is multiplicity. When you don’t have the absolute then there is multiplicity. R: That’s true, yes. We’re talking about the absolute. The absolute is one, otherwise there’s multiplicity. That’s right. SK: When one is embodied and has obtained the Self or understands and becomes enlightened then one is consciousness, I guess we were pointing out these were different containers of consciousness. The body, right? (R: The body is a container of consciousness?) Well relatively speaking? (R: There’s only one consciousness, not ten or twelve consciousnesses.) SK: So there’s one consciousness. So the person who attains that ultimate state — what is the ego? There seems to be individual ego. Someone talks about something or whatever there seems to be different people talking? R: That’s how it seems to you. (SK: Yeah, so…) Where are you coming from? The Jnani or ajnani? (SK: So I want to try to understand intellectually at least what a Jnani sees.) A Jnani sees the Self as one. As I said before. (SK: And so I’m talking, do you know what I’m going to say?) No I don’t know what you’re going to say. I only know that I am one with all there is. (SK: Okay, so otherwise you don’t know per se what this ego is thinking in relative terms.) To me there’s no ego, the ego doesn’t exist. I see you as my Self and I don’t think anything? I don’t see me as you. I don’t see myself as you. (SK: You don’t?) I don’t pick up your thoughts, because in my state there are no thoughts to pick up. Nothing exists, only emptiness. So how can I pick up what you’re saying? There would have to be somebody home to pick up. (SK: Do you see this body here?) Sure, I see you as my Self. Just like the screen in the movie, as all the forms on the screen. So I’m like the screen and you’re all the forms. So I’m a part of you and I’m independent of you. SK: Yeah so, it’s I think maybe more clear to say, “Is the Self?” (R: No self.) Yeah, either one, because my self has a slight tendency for me, an ajnani, to relate that to ego or just an element very slightly, you know what I mean? (R: No.) You see my self, when you see me, you see myself being your self? (R: I see the Self.) You see the Self. (R: There’s only one Self.) Yeah. Is it yours? R: It just exists. If it were mine, there would have to be somebody else. (SX: What?) I would have to be someone else. To be able to say, “It’s my self.” My doesn’t exist. There’s no me or mine. There’s only omnipresent Self. Only the Self exists. It’s not mine, it’s not yours. (SK: So there’s the body here that’s just “the Self” actually.) There’s no body anywhere. (SK: Well from there you can see that there’s a body here?) I see you as the Self not as a body. (SK: Yeah, but for some… I don’t know, there’s like air in between, almost.) For whom? (SK: For me there is, obviously, but for you…) So ask yourself, “Who am I?” (SK: “Where am I?”) “Who am I?” Find out. SR: Well there must be a reason for illusion though, because so many people partake in it, you know there’s about five billion of them who have a hard time being scientific. It would be very hard to prove to them that they were one, even if it is true. R: You can’t prove it, you have to have your own experience. There are also five billion people who dream. Do they say the dreams are real, of course not, they wake up. But they don’t all wake up together. SR: It must serve a purpose is what I mean, this duality must serve some purpose otherwise what a stupid thing it is. R: There’s no purpose and it doesn’t exist. (SR: Well as I said there are several billion illusory people who perceive it for them as a reality.) Who sees all this? That’s your view point. (SR: It’s just my viewpoint, but it comes from observation though in the world, I didn’t make it up.) Observation of whom? (SR: Of those individuals that I come into contact with daily. I’ve not met too many people who don’t express an individual personality.) And who is the observer that’s speaking? (SR: It’s really, it’s all with me.) So who are you? (SR: Well.) From what viewpoint do you speak? (SR: Just my own little perspective.) Then who are you that speaks? (SR: Well?) Are you speaking from the viewpoint of wisdom? (SR: No I’m speaking just from ego.) From ego, exactly, that’s how the ego sees the world, falsely. That’s called false imagination. That’s how you perceive it. (SR: But that would be very difficult to tell all the people who experience this.) But who wants to tell them? (SR: I do. (laughter) My job is to make all the other illusions as unhappy as I am about my illusion.) Worry about yourself. (SR: And the others will take care of themselves?) Of course. (SR: They are already taking care of themselves, as long as I straighten it out they’re all straightened out is that right?) If you believe that. (SR: Well, it must be true.) If you say so. (SR: I’m going to make them all disappear.) Do it, make yourself disappear first. (laughter) SA: Robert, I have a question. Would you’ve already said of course many times that karma is inevitable that it is unfolding. (R: If you believe that you are the body.) Until the full realization comes. But before that comes, would you say that samskaras, that this could be a difficult thing for one to voluntarily increase the samskaras, if that’s the right way to put it. R: You will increase the samskaras by reacting to the world. In other words, if you’re hit by grief, if you do not react to it, then you’re rid of it forever. If you react to it you will likely be hit by grief again and again and again and again, you will increase samskaras. SA: Well about something like this, you know that I’m an artist and I’m creating worlds, like right now I’m doing a video of a book that I had done and I’m kind of fascinated as I have been many times before when you kind of feel that you are creating people, they have emotions, they have this and the whole world is kind of developing before your eyes. So, my feeling is, will I have to pay a price for creating this. Will it be to need, to create more and more illusion. R: Yes it will. Anything in the world that you’re attached to creates greater karma. (SA: So what do you say if I create these worlds and not attach to them, then I can continue creating them.) Yes you can. Once you’re not attached you can do anything you like. (SA: Okay.) But it’s hard to be non-attached for some people. Do not make the mistake and say, “Well it doesn’t matter and you go rob a bank, and so what’s the difference I’m not attached.” You are attached, for if you weren’t attached you wouldn’t rob the bank to begin with. So it’s not a license for you to do whatever you like. You have to be very careful. You have to practice loving kindness, compassion, peace, joy for yourself and everybody else. (SA: Well wouldn’t non-action be a goal also?) No, because of what I mentioned previously. if you were meant to act in this life, you’re going to act and you have no choice. No matter how much you may try not to act. You may join a monastery an ashram, become a monk, but you won’t be able to hold onto it. SE: They’re going to make you work. (laughter) R: Yeah. You’ll have to act. If you’re meant to act, you’ll act. SE: I became a monk to become a contemplative and they kept sending me out to work to support the ashram. (SK: You went to the wrong place.) Yeah went to the wrong ashram.(laughter) R: Why don’t we have a little break and have some refreshments. (Robert plays music as tape ends)