Transcript:
Robert: I welcome you with all my heart. Most of us have been searching for reality for many years. We’ve been to many teachers, many groups. But we still haven’t found peace. Why? Because we’re searching. That’s a direct, succinct, answer. Because we’re searching for something. No matter how many times I emphasize there’s nothing to search for, people still search. Sometimes it would be better if we tore up all the books. Books are only to motivate us, to make us know there’s something else. But there comes a time when we have to go within and try to understand what this body really is. The truth of course is, not a teaching. I do not philosophize. I do not give a teaching as it were. I simply give a confession and to most people it means nothing. But we’re not trying to attract most people. Those who feel something in their heart will always come to Satsang. And you’ll always attract a teacher that is more to your liking. I do not consider myself a teacher or a guru. I do not consider myself anything at all. But, the reality that is left over is your reality. It is omnipresence. There is one unqualified reality and this is it, right here, right now. There are no bodies here. What you see is your own business. When you see others you’re making a mistake. There never were others. We’re always looking for something. We want to find the right teacher. But, as I often say, you are the right teacher. The right teacher is where you are. Person, place or thing is not the right teacher. You probably saw the movie Siddhartha, where he found the river and the peace of the forest. Even that’s a mistake because he took the river seriously and made too much of the forest. He was the forest. He was the river. What we’re seeking is utter foolishness. There’s nothing to seek. I get so many calls. People tell me their problems all the time. And I really don’t know how to respond. To whom shall I tell my problems? There just are not any problems. There are no problems, there never were problems, and there never will be problems. You may say to yourself, “If he only knew my problems.” But if you live in the moment, is there a problem right now, this second? There’s nothing. Nothing is your real nature. A problem begins only when you start thinking. But if you learn not to think, where’s the problem? So, we have to empty the mind and then get rid of the mind. And we cannot empty the mind by thinking, only by observation. Only when there is no thought, is there reality. There’s no sense saying to yourself, “I am parabrahman, absolute reality. I am unborn.” Those are just words. And the next moment you have a problem, you have an emotion, you feel something is wrong. But you keep declaring, “I am unborn. I am the absolute reality.” It is better to say nothing, to believe nothing, to be nothing, and that’s just being yourself. It’s better just to sit and think of nothing and try to become nothing, than it is to chant mantras, or to make affirmations, or to keep saying, “I am Brahman.” Just by sitting you will become yourself. Last Sunday I gave you four principles, which I usually don’t do. But I shared four principles with you, and everybody was in awe. But in the next couple of days I received phone calls from people, still telling me their problems. If you understood the principles, where is the problem? Even if you understood one principle and you ponder that you would be at peace. So what are the four principles? Who can tell me? Sam do you remember? SM: I know it but I uh… R: But yet you know about food, you know about sleep. You know about girls. SM: Count me out of that. (laughter) SD: I know the first one. That everything emanates from the mind. R: Yes. Think about that. Everything in this universe, person, place or thing, everything, your body, your thoughts, creation, God, everything you can think about… (SD: Each other?) …yes, everything, and I mean everything, is a projection of your mind. If you really understand this, how can you have a problem? But you may say, “Well, my rent’s due on the first and I don’t have any money, so how can this help me?” You would be amazed at what it does for you. Do the trees lack for leaves? Do the flowers fail to bloom? If you could realize the truth, that everything is an emanation of your mind, you would become yourself, and your Self is omnipresence. It includes everything for the survival of your body. Think about that. Your body comes from your mind. But as long as you believe your body is yourself, and you understand that it comes out of your mind, it will be provided for, just like leaves are provided for the trunk of the tree. So this teaching is quite predictable and it can be used to improve your human-hood. Not by trying to improve your human-hood directly, that’s where you’ve got problems, but by forgetting about your human-hood and realizing everything is a mental projection. Again what happens? When you realize that the whole universe is a manifestation of your mind you become omnipresence. And in the omnipresence is contained all of your needs, and all of your needs are met from within. But, when you start worrying or thinking about it, you spoil it. Then you have to do human things to take care of you. But if you leave the human-hood alone, and go back to the understanding that it’s all in your mind, you automatically let go of your mind, and the Self takes over, bringing the right people into your life, the right situation, the right address. Remember again, your body came to this earth because of karma. And it’s going to go through whatever is has to go through. But you’ve got absolutely nothing to do with that because you are not your body. But if you think about it you spoil it. Subsequently, allow your body to do whatever it came here to do. Do not interfere. Do not fight. Simply observe. Do not react. You will be okay. SC: Is it okay to ask questions during this? (R: Sure.) How about following your inner feelings? What I’ve been doing lately is going by my inner feelings more. This feels really right for me. Is this also… R: You’ve got to watch yourself because most of the time inner feelings are really habit energy from past lives… (SC: OK.) …and from this life when you were a little kid. You developed certain habits. Most people believe their inner feelings. (SC: Well I feel I go against my inner feelings, like church. I stayed in there against my inner feelings and it tore me apart to stay there. I feel so much clearer now that I’ve left.) Well you were meant to leave, so you did. (SC: Pardon me?) You were meant to leave. You were not meant to be there. SD: Well what about this inner voice people talk about? Is that the unconscious, and how reliable is that? R: Most of the time it’s a bunch of nonsense, because to whom comes the inner voice? To the mind. (SC: It’s all part of the body?) Yes. It’s all part of astral planes, mental planes, causal planes. It all has to do with your body. So you have to ask yourself, “To whom does the inner voice come?” SD: Would it be distinguished from instincts? R: It would in the mental plane. When we’re speaking of the mental plane we speak of distinguishing between instinct and intuition. (SD: And is one better than the other?) They’re both the same. When we’re talking about this path we realize that intuition, as well as instinct comes to the ego. It is the ego that feels these things. The Self is omnipresent. There’s no room for anything else. It’s emptiness, nirvana, the unborn. SC: Is it possible that this body and mind can go on living, like it seems like, maybe go on inner feelings, maybe not, that always looking beyond that into, who am I? R: Your body will go on living anyway. (SC: Right.) It’ll take care of itself. (SC: Right.) And all those thoughts come from the ego. (SC: Okay. So that’s the point, if you look at it properly.) Yes. (SC: To see that it goes on by itself.) Exactly. (SC: Okay.) But do not concern yourself with what you should eat, what you should wear, or where you should go. (SC: So it all becomes apparent?) Sure does. (SC: It all becomes apparent, That’s good.) R: There is something within you that guides you. It’ll direct you when you become still, when you make the mind quiescent, quiet, calm. You will then be guided to know what to do. It is true that some people use their intuition and accomplish great things. But how long does it last before it attracts misery to it? As long as you’re living in the world of cause and effect, the world of duality, for every good there’s a bad, for every bad there’s a good. For every up there’s a down. Don’t be fooled. You use your intuition, you hear voices, and they guide you and tell you to do this, and you become successful. And you think you did something good. But before you know it the IRS gets a hold of you (laughter) and they throw you in jail. (SC: Well I guess they drive you right into the grave one day.) Of course. SD: I think the question is, “Is the inner voice superior to regular feelings?” R: Nothing is superior to the Self. Be your Self, abide in your Self and you’ll never go wrong. But when you hear voices it comes out of your mind. You’re trapped. (SD: And the mind is Maya.) The mind is very powerful. SC: Isn’t that one of the questions: Who’s aware of this? R: Well tell me who is? Who is? (SC: Who is?) Who’s aware of it? There’s nobody to be aware of anything, nobody is home, emptiness. (SC: I feel that that’s true.) Who feels that? (SC: Uh-uh okay.) Even the feeling is wrong. You just abide in the Self. There’s no feeling. There’s nirvana, there’s emptiness, there’s the state of the unborn. (SC: It’s really interesting that all the manifestations can point to that. Even the words, “Who am I?” It just says, “Oh.” To me it says something’s aware of it. That seed.) The seed’s got to go. (SC: Pardon me?) The seed has to go. (SC: Seed?) It has to go. You should have no feeling. (SC: As myself?) As yourself, but something will take over. Something that’s beyond words. There’s a something that will come. It can be called sat-chit-ananda, bliss. Call it whatever you like. But something will take over, and you’ll feel divine, and you’ll be okay, just the way you are. Now, what’s the second principle we were talking about. See, the secret, as I told you Sunday, is to think about these things as soon as you open your eyes in the morning. As soon as you open your eyes, what do you think about? You think about food, you think about your day, you think about work, you think about money, you think about friends, relationships, but you do not think about your mind being a projection of all the things that happen. Whatever you think about in the morning will carry you through. Therefore, you have to think about the right things in the morning as soon as you awaken. Don’t wait. So what’s the second principle we discussed Sunday? Who remembers? (Students guess.) R: See? So again I ask you, what do you remember? You remember your personal problems, you remember your needs, and you think you’re human. You think about the body continuously. That’s why there is trouble with self-realization. (Door Bell Rings as someone arrives and is greeted, then Robert continues) R: So you’ve got to investigate your mind and watch it all the time. See what it’s doing to you. Watch how it controls you. It makes you emotional. It makes you believe something is wrong. It makes you angry. All these things come from the mind. The idea is to be aware of this. The awareness alone leads you to the light, just being aware of that alone. You don’t have to know any book knowledge. Just be aware of what your mind really is. That’s how you conquer your mind. By being aware of it, and no longer responding to it, no longer to react to the mind. Something that usually makes you angry, before you’d respond, and you’d want to win the argument, but now your reaction is no reaction. You simply smile and you watch. When your mind sees there’s no response it will become weaker and weaker, until it disappears. It’s just like arguing with a person. What happens if you stop arguing? The person goes away. They don’t know what to think. They just won’t have anything to do with you. They just leave. So when you stop responding to your thoughts your mind will go away, and become weaker, and weaker, and weaker, until there is no mind. So what’s the second principle? (SD: Give us a hint.) Some of the words I spoke were them. (Students guess some more.) R: See, think about this. There are so many things you remember. But they all have to do with your body. True? (More remembering.) R: Okay. The second one was to have a deep feeling, and a realization, that you are unborn, that you do not prevail, and you will never disappear. Remember? You will never die. Think about that. Just to think to yourself that you are unborn. There’s no cause for your birth. Cause doesn’t exist. There’s no reason for your birth. You never were born. And as far as your existence is concerned, it’s not there. You do not prevail from birth to death. There is nothing going on, absolute nothing. And you do not get older, you do not disappear, or you do not die. Think about that. How free you’ll become when you understand what this means. It’s a beautiful feeling to know that you were never born, that you’ve always existed, but not the way you think you are. Your life as it is right now, whatever you think you’re doing, however important it may be to you, is totally meaningless. Why? Because it’ll be gone soon. So whatever you’re getting into, whatever excites you, is only for a time. Take Elvis Presley, people still remember him. But will anybody remember him five-hundred years from now? Take your great classical musicians, concertos, Bach, Schubert, everybody else, Rachmaninoff. They’re important to you right now, but five-hundred years from now nobody will remember them at all. Everything will be so different it’ll be like you’re in another universe. So the point is, if you get too involved in those things you’re missing the mark, because you’re not understanding your real nature. You’re not understanding who you really are. You should be searching for the meaning to yourself, and spending 80% of the time doing that. I know it’s not easy to do for some people because they seem to be involved in life. But yet you can do it. It doesn’t matter. You don’t have to set aside a time for meditation. You can do it while you’re driving your car, while you’re at work, while you’re playing music. Just be aware of yourself, of who you really are, and realize the rest are a projection of your mind. To be aware of these truths sets you free. Just to be aware of them. SD: Would that be the same when you say you are unborn or you will never die, would that be the same as saying nothing exists? R: Yes, it is. Nothing as you think or as it appears, exists. It appears to exist but so does a dream. A dream appears very real. But is there a creation in a dream? Is there an end? Everything just begins, and ends when you wake up. The world is the same. SG: You should not say nothing exists, because even “exists” is an idea. R: It’s an idea. That’s got to go in the end. In the beginning, when you’re finding yourself, you realize that I exist. “I am that I am,” means I exist, same thing. But then you find out who is the I that exists? And you follow it through. And that’s got to go. SG: The I has to go too? R: Everything has got to go. Now the average person will think, “If everything goes, what’s left?” What’s left is everything, you are left as your Self, and that’s beyond explanation. Then you turn back to yourself and you become humble, compassionate, loving, because you are aware that you are the whole universe. And you can say, “All this is the Self, and I am That.” (SC: Is that an experience?) That’s an experience. It’s beyond experience. It’s a revelation. It stays with you all the time. (SC: Because appearances fall down?) Exactly, true. That can be called sahaja samadhi, when you abide in the Self all the time. But that’s ineffable, it’s beyond words. SC: The experience does it matter, does how deep, really matter? R: There’s no such thing as deep. Deep is a mind concept. You’re either that or you’re not. So what’s the third principle? (Silence) R: (Robert laughs) I’m going to ask you again on Sunday. Egoless-ness is at the basis of everything. Everything has no ego. Now I’m not just talking about sentient things, everything. The mineral kingdom, the vegetable kingdom, the animal kingdom, the human kingdom, and so forth. There is no ego behind it. SD: That’s number three that there is no ego in existence. R: That means there’s no cause for its existence. And just to understand this perfectly, makes you live in the moment all the time. It gets you centered. Think what that means to you personally, that there’s no ego in back of anything. There’s no cause for anything to exist. Like the dream again, is there a cause for the dream? All of a sudden you find yourself dreaming and everything exists. Where did it come from? It came from the mind. It’s a dream. And the only way to get out of the dream is what? To wake up! So this is also a sort of a dream, it has no substance. Everything is transient, no ego in back of it. SD: I don’t quite understand there being no ego and there being no cause as being the same things, really? (R: The ego is what makes something real.) Makes it appear real? R: The reason your body is doing what it does is because of your ego. That’s the cause of your body function, the ego. So if there’s no ego, there’s no lack, there’s no limitation, there’s no sickness, there’s no death, there’s nothing like that. SD: Are the ego and the mind the same, or are you making a differentiation? R: They can be synonymous, in a way. Take for instance, you’ve got a sickness of some type. If you realize there’s no ego in back of it, there’s no cause, where did it come from? It didn’t come from anything so it doesn’t exist. SD: So could you also just say nothing exists? R: But is it meaningful for you when you say that? See, it has to be meaningful for you. If you say nothing exists, your mind and your ego will come and fight you and say, “What do you mean? Look, the chair is solid. It exists.” So you’ll become disappointed. SD: My non-existent ego will be disappointed. (laughter) R: But when you understand the entire principle, that everything is egoless-ness, everything, then you just exist in the moment, like that (snaps his fingers). You exist in the second, in the moment, and in that moment all is well, and everything is unfolding as it should, in that moment. But as soon as you start to think, then there’s a cause. SC: So the only cause is the thinking process. (R: Exactly.) What you are telling us, it’s truth. (R: Yes.) Yeah because I’m experiencing that right now. R: Exactly. And you may think it’s hard to do, to think like that, to be like that, but it’s not. Just by remembering the egolessness of all things, will wake you up. And you will become free. Now, what’s the fourth principle? (More guesses, including, none of these principles exist.) R: You’re right. I usually don’t do this, but I’m giving you these principles to help you. (laughs) Right. They don’t exist, you’re right. But as long as you believe your body exists they exist also. As long as you feel the world exists, your body exists, and your mind exists, then the principles also exist. And karma exists, and God exists, and creation exists. Nobody remembers the fourth principle? Well, I’ll share it with you again. (More guessing) R: Well if you recall. You have to have a strong feeling and realization of what selfrealization means. And what’s the only way you can do that? Remember? (More guessing) R: That helps. By realizing what it is not. So you’re right. You can’t know what selfrealization is because you are already that. But you can know what it’s not. So by eliminating everything, then what is left is self-realization. SD: So how would you simply define number four? R: By realizing there’s no body, there’s no world, there’s no God, there are no organs, there is no mind. (SD: It sort of summarizes all the others.) Yes, that there’s nothing. So every time you think of something you say, “Neti-neti. Not this, not this.” And you go all the way down until there’s nothing left to say. Then you’re that. (SD: I still would like a simple explanation, three or four words.) Three or four words? (laughs). There are no others. Nothing else exists but the Self, and I am That. You’ve got to work it out in your own head. You’ve got to use your mind to destroy your mind. (SD: But it’s based on neti-neti?) Yes. (SD: Rather than emotion?) Exactly. Even if thoughts come to you like, “I am perfect.” Get rid of that. (SD: Never had that problem.) (laughter) “I am not the body.” Get rid of that thought. SN: I wrote down, realize what is not. R: That’s good. Whatever you come up with, it’s not that, until you’re completely empty. It’s like emptying out a garbage can. As long as you keep turning it back over, the garbage will stay in. You’ve got to hold it upside down until all the garbage falls out. So, we’ve got a lot of samskaras, past tendencies, karma. All that’s got to go. So we empty everything out so there’s nothing left. (SG: Stay upside down.) Stay upside down. Then you become free. It’s really simple. It’s not complicated. But if you remember the principles it helps you. That’s all I’ve got to say. Questions? See those of us who come here are tired of playing mind games. We want to become free and you become free by not wanting to become free. It’s just abiding in the Self. By being yourself. And if you follow those four principles, you will become your Self very fast, but you have to think of them all the time. ST: May I ask you a question? (R: Of course.) When you spoke about the first principle, you spoke a lot of what was going on with me, and I realize the answer is stressful. I also hate the situation. (R: Change it.) That’s what I wanted to ask, do I accept it or change it, relatively speaking. (R: It depends on where you’re coming from.) I haven’t been able to transcend it as yet. (R: So change it.) How do I do this? I have no alternatives. R: Look at your past, look at your background, if you’ve seen that you’ve changed things a lot in your life and things are still bad then don’t change it, but work on yourself. But if you have not had negative experiences and this is pretty bad for you, then change it. ST: I have a pattern of being in negative experiences. One in particular is I’ve been working in the world, different jobs, just making a living in the world. Like teaching for now and then I take on routine jobs, and then I go back to teaching. And with this job which just about finished, it’s getting me back on my feet just a little bit. R: Find out who is going through those experiences. You’re not going through any of those experiences, you are free. Find out who is free and who is going through those experiences. Separate them. ST: May I still change the job, it still represents itself a possibility. (R: By all means.) And so I’m in a job that my heart says I hate. It’s hard for me to get up in the morning to go to it, very hard to. I don’t have to force myself to keep the job if that means doing my practice, is that wrong headed? (R: No it’s not.) It means that I’m not really deep enough, I know I’m not deep enough. R: You’re going to find that things will improve for you this year. (ST: I’m sorry I didn’t hear you.) Things will start improving this year for you, to your liking. SD: You said, ask to whom do these things occur, and that’s self-inquiry right? R: Of course it always does, if you do it in the right way. SD: Because if you ask, “Who hates this?” it turns out to be the ego who hates. ST. It doesn’t work for me, not as an experience. (R. Then don’t do it.) Yeah, any intuition I’ll share it, but it does not take me to the experience that I am not the mind and the body, it does not cease suffering. Suffering does not cease, I do not go to the point of the cessation of suffering of the body, by inquiry, and yet the teaching is true, what it means. What seems to work partly for me is surrendering, a giving up, but it’s not sufficient. Giving up isn’t sufficient. I realize that, I listen to that whatever, whether it’s the strength or the insight, there’s still fighting, there’s a partial giving up and still there’s a tremendous suffering. R: Then simply quiet your mind, sit still and do nothing. Everything will happen by itself. Like you’re doing now, become still. Do not try to do anything to yourself. If thoughts come just watch them and everything will take care of itself. (ST: Don’t inquire and surrender. You know it makes sense, that makes perfect sense, it’s a matter of depth.) That’s when you abide in the Self, when you do nothing and everything stops, all action stops and no matter how things come to you, you don’t care, you just don’t react. Even death, makes no difference. (ST: Would you say that there is something more important than all of the sadhanas?) No you can’t say that because that’s the ego again, but when you just sit and all fear leaves you, something else will take its place and that will be bliss and happiness. When you stop fearing. (ST: Yes.) So just sit and let all the fears come. Smile and sit still. SD: You mean just look at them and detachedly? R: Just watch them. Let them come, let them do their worst, let them drive you crazy and you don’t care, let them. But you try to stop, now, let them. Just whistle, sing a song, do nothing and watch what happens. (SD: So you’re talking basically about selfobservation, Robert?) Not even self-observation because you’ve got to think about that, to do self-observation. You’re actually just doing just absolute zero. You’ve turned yourself off and you have the attitude, even if I die right now, so what, doesn’t matter. Even if my worst fear manifests, good, let it. (laughter) (SD: It seems difficult.) No not really, it seems difficult but it’s easy if you do it, try it. Get by yourself and just sit down, put your hands together and do absolutely nothing. Don’t tell yourself you’re watching or you’re practicing anything at all. Give all practices up, give it all up. SC: So even questioning, “Who am I?” is still ego? R: Yes, definitely, give everything up and let the worst come. ST: One problem with my job is that I have to get up at 5:30 in the morning and I meditate best in the morning, and its been eliminated in my life in the last three weeks and I find it hard in the evening because I come home so stressed out. I still will try it but I felt crippled by not being able to meditate in the mornings… (SD: Can you get up a half an hour earlier?) Then I will have to get up real early actually. (laughs) R: No your problem is this, you think you have to meditate. You don’t have to do anything. (ST: I understand you don’t do anything or you think you can’t really sit?) No just be your Self. You don’t have to meditate, you don’t have to do anything, be yourself just the way you are. SN: The path that Robert teaches really blew my mind because I was on a different path and I’ve been meditating for like eight years and I was taught that I needed meditation it was a dualistic path. (ST: I’m not into that, I was.) Well whatever right, but the thing about what Robert has taught me, I mean the main thing, first of all that growth doesn’t come about when you’re conscious of it, even here it’s not coming about through words. Yet it’s happening, it’s not through words and the same growth in your lifetime does not come about when you’re sitting and meditating. Not that that’s bad but even while you’re meditating and trying to meditate. I used to have to sit away and have a practice. Now if I do sit to meditate, according to what I’ve learnt from Robert, it’s just, it’s just like, I-am, I am That I am, I-am. What I-am is the feeling that’s behind when I say, “I-Am.” So whatever that feeling is…I don’t do anything, I don’t think, I know nothing and I just try to be like Robert and I see how he sits. So the growth that occurs, so in a way he was saying that maybe you don’t have to meditate, if you want to meditate, that’s fine. ST: It’s beneficial, being still and I realize you can be still in action, but I do find it, especially when you’re teaching it’s not only still. SN: It’s not only being still but I still like to sit, but then Robert says that you don’t even have to sit. And I understand how growth is occurring when I’m trying to still myself and how Robert says, you just think and try to be that by sitting quietly helps me to do that. Although, you don’t grow just when you sit quietly, it’s a twenty-four hour feat and for me it changes, if I’m out during the day I may ask, “Who am I? To whom does this experience come…?” R: It’s important that you make your life simple. (ST: That’s the thing, mines very complicated.) But when I say simple, I mean your mind. (ST: Oh?) A person can do twenty different things, but mentally you’re not doing anything at all. Detach yourself from everything. Go to work if you have to, come home wash the dishes, eat, do what you do, but don’t think about it. Don’t get involved in the thought process. Just by doing that alone something will move you to wherever you have to be. In other words what I’m saying, when you go out of this situation mentally, you’ll be forced to leave, by the momentum of your mind. When you’re doing what you’re doing, without attachment, without being the doer, without thunking that it is hard or easy. It’s like being at school and graduating and the momentum will pick you up and put you on the next plateau wherever you’ve got to be. So if you’re supposed to be in China, something will put you there and you’ll wind up in China. That’s your next step. You’ve got nothing to do with it. SI: Is that how you went to India? R: Exactly, you have absolutely nothing to do with it. There’s a mysterious power that takes care of everything, all you’ve got to do is abide in the Self, and you do that by keeping still. SD: So he’s talking to us about that we are not the doer. SN: You know how you blew my mind, as I was always taught of the so many different paths of meditation, the key word is kind of like, self-realization. Almost the first time I met Robert he said, “There’s no Self and there’s nothing to do and just…there are no words. SC: Is not doing anything different from the practicing of witnessing? R: Yes it’s different, because you’re not witnessing. (SC: Is witnessing doing something?) Yes. There’s nobody to witness. You’re just empty. (SC: Well I can see that that’s true, okay, and things appear, and there’s no one really witnessing because that hasn’t come into being yet, as far as the witnessing goes, so obviously there’s no one doing it?) To witness there has to be an ego. (SC: So the witness would come later and say, “I’ve got to witness this.”) Yes, just watch. (SC: Can you say that just witnessing goes on without being…) Without being aware. (SC: Pardon me, without being aware?) Yes, it just happens by itself. (SC: It does just happen by itself. It’s always happening. In this manifestation it’s always happening.) When you’re not aware of your comings and goings that means you’ve arrived. (SC: Okay, you mean as a person?) As a person, as a mind. (SC: And as emotions, is there a difference?) As a person, it’s all your actions, mind is all your thoughts. (SC: Okay, so the thoughts are still something?) When there is nobody left to pay attention to the comings and goings of your body or your mind, then you’ve arrived. (SC: Okay, paying attention though is the key to that space.) The key, yes. (SC: The attention… Okay, so if the thoughts are there, just like the buildings are there and the sky is there and so on.) They’re just there. (SC: They’re just there, you don’t have nothing to do with it?) Nothing to do with you. (SC: Someone?) Exactly! That’s why the example I always use every time is, “The sky is blue.” If you go outside and show me the sky and say, “Look Robert how beautiful blue it is.” I will agree with you, but in reality there’s no sky and there’s no blue. (SC: Right.) So in reality there are no thoughts and there are no actions. There is nobody to act and there are no thoughts, it’s like hypnotism. (SC: Do I need to realize that?) You just have to be that. (SC: Okay.) (laughs) It’s like you’ve been hypnotized. (SC: Can you just see the truth of it?) You don’t even do that, no. (SC: This is good.) There are no words to explain it, you just, you’re just there. (SC: Who’s the Self?) That’s what bliss is. (SC: Yes, there’s a touch of that. It’s kinda like practice without practicing.) That’s right. R: (Turns to another student) John, What do you think of all this? SJ: I try not to. (laughter) R: How do you think this affects your music? (SJ: I think that Brahman and Shakti are the same thing, that manifestation and non-manifestation are the same thing.) You’re right, true. The music will go on, but you’ve got nothing to do with it. (SJ: That’s the work I have to do is to, if it’s time to go on, then my work is to get out of the way of it.) The music will become more beautiful, but your ego will not be involved. SJ: Umm, I still have an appreciation for the beauty of…well we all have an appreciation for life. I need to love life and the manifestation of life and I think that, that aspect of the manifestation that is the same thing as the mother aspect of God. (R: But where does it come from?) I recently read a story of Rama Krishna and how his teacher brought him into Samadhi. (R: Yes.) And Rama Krishna could not experience it because he was too attached to the mother. His love for worshipping the mother – I forget what his teacher did but I think he picked up a piece of glass and pressed it between his forehead. R: He pressed Krishna between his eyes. Pressed Krishna between his eyebrows. SJ: Yeah and to bring him into… (R: Oneness, right.) …one pointedness and so I can see how we can be too attached to the beauty of nature. (R: Well look at it like this.) But also, later Rama Krishna’s teacher began to realize that Shakti was simply the same thing. That in appreciating the beauty of a tree, you’re also appreciating the non-existence of the tree too or God, and that it’s the same thing. That we can worship God in mindlessness or one pointedness in asking, “Who am I?” Also when one sees God in manifestation are we not, is it not the same state? R: It depends what state of consciousness you’re speaking from. As long you are aware that all things are of your mind. That you’re creating the universe out of your own mind, then you can worship whatever you like. But look at it this way again, I appreciate a flower, so I take the flower into my room and worship the flower and in two days it’s dead, so what have I accomplished? I have become disappointed, discouraged. So it is with life, we worship somebody, we worship something and everything changes and now we become disappointed but like you said before, if we worship those things as the Self, that’s a different story. SD: If you see that all is one that’s a different story. (R: That’s different.) SK: You can say also that the manifestations are really not out there either? (R: True.) SJ: Is that what Rama Krishna did? R: Umm. See that’s why in the beginning stage you learn to shy away from everything, because you realize that everything is duality. It’s transitory, it comes and goes. But then the realized Sage, you begin to love everything again because it’s all part of the Self. You just see it differently. SD: So his appreciation of nature is the appreciation of the Self, right? (R: Exactly.) You are what you see? (R: Yes.) SJ: I can see that there is also within duality, light and the dark. God or Brahman also has the qualities of shakti that perhaps by understanding the mother that there is life, there is death, there is constant change, maybe that’s also an aspect of the father, constantly renewal. That God is not stagnant. He lies beyond concept. If you can imagine life and death at the same time, constantly renewing and constantly dying at the same time. And that perhaps nature is, you know the aspect of the mountain lion consuming a deer, is simply the aspect of Brahman consuming himself. R: Umm. If you can see it like that then you’re okay, that’s good. (SJ: I think that nature is simply a manifestation of the qualities of the Godhead and…) This is true but from your talking you have a tendency to separate both of them. Again God is myself, everything is the Self. So when you’re talking about getting realized it’s the Self you’re talking about. You’re talking about your Self. (SJ: Right.) The tiger consuming the deer, is your Self. It’s going on within you. (SJ: Right.) But if you see it from that aspect, then you can go back into duality it doesn’t matter. SG: So at that point there is neither duality nor manifestation. R: That’s right. There’s just bliss. SJ: I see then in the ecosystem that aspect of nature which has had thousands of years to work out balance, and life is coexistent with life and in that ecosystem it functions like music does. It helps me to understand how I can balance my own life and helps me to see God. R: But you’re still separating yourself. (SD: Separating yourself from God.) SJ: Well right now I’m speaking as the ego as Arjuna now. R: Look at it this way, it’s like this. It’s like you’re having a dream, but you’re aware that you’re dreaming. You’re awake in the dream and you know you’re participating in the dream, but you know that you’re dreaming and going to wake up. (SG: Think of it as a lucid dream.) It’s the same thing. Except, what we have a tendency to do, is we get involved in the dream. We think the dream is real. We get involved and we have emotions and the dream becomes more powerful. So we’re giving power to the dream. Thus we suffer. That’s why we suffer. But if we’re always aware it’s a dream we can’t suffer. It’s impossible to suffer because you’re aware that you’re dreaming and the dream is going on and you’re in it. (SJ: The question came up about whether or not to change ones lifestyle?) Not to change your lifestyle? (SJ: Whether or not to? To make the decision to change something in ones life or to accept it.) There is no standard answer because it is determined by the person or karma and everything else, everybody’s different. SJ: What I’ve been thinking about is what part does the so-called, “Science Of Mind,” creative visualization, what part does that play in our lives as far as imagining something first so then you can manifest it. R: That’s completely mind power. It’s all mind. (SJ: Is it natural, but? Is it natural for us to do that as human beings?) We have to learn to do it also. It’s like going from Grammar school to high school where we learn all about the mind. Now when we learn all about the mind we have to go higher and drop the mind completely and go beyond the mind. SD: Plus Richard wouldn’t we create in our own reality as they’re taught in those paths. Also all of that is predestined so whatever reality you create on a certain level would’ve happened anyway. You were predestined to create that in life. SJ: Are we not co-creators with that destiny or part of it? R: No we’re not co-creators at all. There’s only one creator, there’s only one. There’s not a ‘co’ and you are that one. Everything else is mental. SJ: Seeing the mind as a tool in the process of creativity. (R: Who sees?) I know that I’m not the mind, but can I not learn how to use my mind naturally in the process of creativity? R: As long as you use the mind you’ve got to suffer. Say you use the mind to become a great musician and you’re going to play a concert in London and the plane crashes and you’re dead. That’s from the use of your mind, but if you go beyond that and you understand what the mind is and where it comes from then you begin to realize that the only freedom you’ve got is to turn within and see the truth. Everything else is karmic. SG: That in itself is a path to the creative process I suppose, one level of that, because we’re watching something manifest but you’re watching yourself do it rather than to be immersed in it. (SD: You’re kind of knowing that you’re not the doer right?) Yeah. Much less ego annoying you for it and then it’s like doing work, it’s like doing anything else, you do it better, because you’re not there, you’re there but you’re not there. (laughter) (SD: It sounds paradoxical when you know that you are not the doer you just do it. That sounds like a paradox but it really works.) R: See you can create the whole world with your mind. The mind is very powerful but you’ve got to watch out what you create. SG: Frankenstein. (laughter) (SC: We’re creating monsters.) (laughter) R: What you should rather do is to ask yourself, “To whom comes this mind? Where did the mind come from?” Find out, you got the power, “Where did it come from? Where does all the power in this mind come from?” Ask yourself. SJ: Where this thinking has led me is that there is that aspect of mind, of subconscious or world mind or universal mind that’s able to see what I need in my life, better than me and so the words, “Seeking the kingdom” makes sense. To me it makes sense that that is part of creativity that in seeking the kingdom would I manifest in it, will I also create in it, as part of my reality and if that’s the case then there’s no need to think or create anything other than that, because universal mind knows what we need in order to live a balanced life. R: How does it know? Where did it get its knowledge? Where did the knowledge come to? (SJ: The Self?) Exactly, so you’ve been giving it power all the time. You thought it was outside of yourself because all the time you’re coming from there. Take back the power. Do not think anything has power outside of your Self. (SJ: If I see that the world is also the Self, I can understand that, but the illusion is also the Self isn’t it? There is nothing other than the Self?) But what self are you talking about? (SJ: Brahman?) If you’re talking from the standpoint of parabrahman then everything becomes love, compassion, joy and bliss. SD: The Self with a capital “S.” That’s the one. R: In other words you treat your enemies and your loved ones alike. You look at an animal and a human being and they’re both the same thing. You stop differentiating. You don’t do it consciously, it just happens that way. So the closer you get to selfrealization, the more unity unveils itself. You like become one with every living thing. There’s no difference. (SD: And everything that you’re doing is the Self?) Yes. (SD: You’re one with all things?) With all things. SC: (tape unclear.) (R: It depends who’s talking.) But there’s no one talking. R: That’s why silence is the greatest teacher. When Nerada came over to my house the other day with Joy, some other people were there. There was a big conversation going on. What was I doing? (SN: Sitting in silence.) I just sat there. (SN: I learned a lot from that. It blew my mind. I saw that.) So I’m not too good of a conversationalist. (laughter) SN: I saw it. It was very blatant because he was sitting in a chair and he was hiding in the middle of the room and I was like nothing will happen except the meeting is going to blow up and it was something. Hang out with Robert a little bit more next week because you’d see. Like I was saying about meditation earlier, it’s like self-realization, there’s no Self there’s nothing to realize, so when you sit and meditate there is no you theres no… It’s just sitting there and everything is perfect as it is. And when I saw Robert sitting there it’s like I visualized, I saw what I knew. You know it’d be perfect if he could just come here and sit here in silence. R: So don’t invite me to your party. (laughter) No, remember also, I didn’t consciously say, “I’m going to sit here and say nothing.” There was just nothing to say. In other words don’t put it on. Don’t imagine you’re like that. I remember one time when I was in Fallsberg New York. Muktananda invited me over to see him, when Muktananda was alive. So he was having all the Shakti going on, and everybody was jumping up and down and doing all kinds of things… (laughter) …and screaming and going crazy. So I was really amused. And he went to all the monitors, he said, “Throw this guy out, throw that guy out, throw this guy out, because they’re all putting it on, they’re all playing games.” They imagine all kinds of things are happening to them and spirits are there and all kinds of nonsense. So the point is, “Be Your Self”. Don’t put anything on, do not imagine you’re somebody else, just be yourself. SC: You told me that on the phone, that there are two ways, another was to be myself during the day and be as natural as possible. (R: And what about at night?) Pardon me? (R: What about at night?) What about at night? Same thing, same thing (R: Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde.) SD: Are you saying, “Be your Self,” or “be the Self?” R: Same thing. When you just think… (SC: Don’t separate it?) Don’t separate, “I am myself.” Just that alone makes something happen. SC: Is it the same as saying, don’t make this Self any different? (SD: From that Self?) From everything else? R: That’s right. In the beginning stages you try to separate your Self from your body. You say, “I’m not the body.” Then I must be something else, so that’s duality. But as you advance you realize, “There’s no body. There never was a body, there’s only the Self and I am That.” (SD: Which is the fourth principle right?) Yes right. In other words, what you believe as your body is the Self, but you think it’s the body. (SD: Because everything is the Self?) Sure. You’re not limited to a body. SJ: Is it possible to experience the Self through focusing on, say a waterfall, or a tree, or something outside of our own body presence? R: It can give you a good feeling, give you a very high feeling, but there has to be an experiencer to experience. Yet no experiencer exists. So as long as you’re the experiencer, you’ll be experiencing all kinds of phenomenon. When you transcend the experiencer, then you are the waterfall or the mountain or whatever. There’s no difference. SJ: It’s the same obstacle though isn’t it? The obstacle that’s in the way of realizing the Self within the body is the same as realizing the Self in the waterfall. R: Yes, you are the obstacle, exactly. (SC: Did you say you are the obstacle?) Yes you are the obstacle. (SC: You mean the mind?) The mind, yes. SJ: If the Self is in a tree as well as inside us. Then should it not be possible to be in touch with the Self by meditating on the tree rather than on my own chakras? Ask who the tree is? (Robert laughs) (R: That’s separation) SG: A good analogy would be, instead of trying to look at the tree, look at everything as one big I. That we’re all one, that this is an I that sees, but this is all an I. There’s nothing to look at. An I that just exists by itself, which is the same as I. There’s nothing to look at. You’re the I and that’s the I. You’re not looking at anything because then you’re looking at something and saying that’s not… (SJ: Then you’d be imagining an I, rather than…) No you don’t imagine the I, because everything is the I. You aren’t imagining an I, you are it, you are already I and that’s the I and it’s not looking. The waterfall’s the I and that that looks at the waterfall is the I. R: When the average person looks on a tree, they don’t really see the tree. They have a concept of a tree. SC: Robert I have an experience that feels like everything is myself and then sometimes it turns around and it feels like I’m not there, it’s so obvious from that experience. A kind of experience from this point of view, when I’m in that, it’s like there’s obviously nobody there, it’s just things that seem to…it’s hard to explain it… (R: I know what you mean.) And later I say I experienced that, but at the time there’s no one there to experience that, that’s what it feels like. SD: Do you feel anything? SC: I don’t feel anything. I don’t feel like I’m even here. Seeing that it’s only an experience, no it’s not an experience, right now I’m saying experience, it feels like there’s no one there, there’s no one anywhere and everything is… (SD: Just beingness, right?) R: Well my question to you is, “Are you happy?” During these experiences. SC: Am I happy during the experience? It feels very…I can almost say happy, it’s a transcendence kind of happiness though, there’s a… R: If you have a semblance of reality, it’s untold happiness, extreme happiness. So it’s a mental condition. You’re either the Self or you’re not. There are no gradual stages. Everything else is mental. (tape break, as Robert continues and finishes up Satsang) R: Shanti, shanti, peace, peace. Did you get your answer to your last question? When I said, “So what who cares?” (ST: Yes.) Remember that your problem has no substance. It’s like a shock, if it appears, so what. There is no basis for the problem. They’re just disturbances in you. Get it out of your mind. It’s not good. So, it’s been nice being with you. Remember to love yourself, to worship yourself, to bow to yourself, to pray to yourself, because God dwells in you as you, Peace. (tape ends)