Transcript:
Robert: (tape starts abruptly) …I am merely voicing what I feel. I am Absolute awareness. I am sat-chit-ananda. I am not referring to Robert. I’m referring to I-am and remember I-am includes everybody here. I-am ultimate oneness. I was never born and I can never die. I am total bliss, infinite happiness, divine awareness, pure intelligence. This is the I-am. It has come to my attention that the mantra that I gave you a while back is a little confusing to most people. When you say the mantra, “Who am I, I am he, I am not the body.” There’s a little confusion. I was speaking to one of you last week and I saw where the confusion lies. When you say, “I am not the body,” to whom are you referring? This is an important point. “I am not the body,” to most people means simply this: “I am not my body.” But I am a part from my body especially those of us with a Christian Judaeo background. We say, “My body is the temple for the living God and God resides within myself.” This may be true to an extent, but it is not the ultimate truth. The ultimate truth is exactly what it says, “I am not my body.” In other words, my body does not exist, but there are not two of us. There is not I-am and my body or there is not God and my body. There is not God residing in my body. There simply is no body. No body exists. Therefore I-am, is that I-am. You are consciousness just the way you are, but you are not the body. In other words what you think is the body, is consciousness. There is not the body and consciousness. There’s the body as consciousness and the body does not exist the way it appears. As an example: Take a movie theatre, you have the moving picture on the screen. You do not see the screen because it’s covered by images and you do not even think of the screen. You have no idea there is a screen because you do not think about it. You’re thinking about the images. You become immersed in the movie, beginning, a middle and an end. But yet without the screen there would be no movie. So we can say the movie is not reality. The screen is the reality. And when the images cover the screen, the screen is still the reality. But the images give an appearance like reality. An example of this is when you try to get up and grab the images on the screen what will you get. You’ll be grabbing the screen, for the images do not exist. And so it is with us. Everything you see, everything that appears are images, or what is called false imagination and the only truth about these images is consciousness. These are all cosmic images on the screen of consciousness, and that’s everything. You and I, the chairs, the couch, the sky, the moon, the universe are simply images, appearances, optical illusions. The truth is that you are consciousness, but you can’t see yourself because of the maya, the grand illusion. So you believe that you are the body and you are the doer. Again it’s like the movie and the screen. You get wrapped up in the movie and you start to feel the movie. You have forgotten there is a screen and the screen is the reality, but you’re all wrapped up in the movie. And you can tell me everything about the movie. But you can’t tell me anything about the screen. The only time you remember there’s a screen is when the movie is over and even then you do not pay any attention to it because you get up and go home. But remember, if it weren’t for the screen there would be no movie. So if it weren’t for consciousness, there would be no images. Consciousness is real, the images are false. The images come and go, change continuously, constantly. But consciousness remains the same all the time. Consciousness is like emptiness, like empty space and you are that. I-am that I-am, that is the meaning of this. I am absolute awareness. So you say, “Well h ow come I feel all these other things? How can I feel disease? How can I feel hurt? How can I feel my problems?” The reason you feel these things is because of wrong identification. You’re not identifying with the screen, you’re identifying with the images. And as long as you believe that you’re an image like the movie, you’re going to suffer accordingly. The secret is therefore to let go, and quiet your mind. Identifying with consciousness and not with the image which is called false imagination. But you may say to me, “Will I see my fellow man suffering? There’s a war to break out in Iraq. All kinds of man’s inhumanity to man is happening all around me. Is that false?” As long as you believe in it, then it’s real to you. Therefore I will not tell you it’s false because you believe in it. Again it’s like the person in the movie. I tell them the screen is the reality, but they say, “No, the images are real, I can see them, can’t you see the person killing somebody else? And somebody dying of cancer? And a bomb falling on the city? How can you say that’s not real?” So I come and take away the screen and there’s nothing but a blur. This is what happens when you awaken. The human dream is over. It becomes nothing but a blur. And you become steeped in reality. Reality becomes bliss, happiness, eternal joy, satchit- ananda. The question therefore is: How do I identify myself with consciousness? There’s only one way and that is to quiet you mind. Your mind has to become quiescent, still. When the mind is still reality shines forth by itself. But as long as you accept images, images are problems, things that you see with your eyes and your senses, and you think they’re real. Things that you feel. This is called false imagination. And because you feel these things first you suffer accordingly. The secret is to transcend those feelings and again the only way to transcend those feelings is to quieten your mind. How do you quiet your mind? By taking time to be still. “Be still and know that I am God.” And if you can’t become still by yourself there are various methods, the highest one being self-inquiry. By simply asking yourself, “Who’s mind is not still? Who feels all the images? Who suffers? Who becomes angry? Who identifies with the world?” Again don’t make the mistake and believe that you are not the body as I mentioned in the beginning. So you think you’re separate. There are two of you. You think there’s the body, and this is what advanced people who believe this now. They think they are not the body, but the body goes off by itself and does what it wants. But they are something else. This couldn’t be further from the truth. There’s only one ultimate oneness. One! There are never two. There’s never the body and your Self. There’s only the body as your Self. And as you see this the body vanishes and disappears. It disappears because it never existed. That which exists must always exist. That which never existed must disappear. That’s why the body gets old and dies, because it isn’t real to begin with, it’s an illusion. So, the real you is exactly what you are right now, the Self. You are the Self. You are not the body but you are the Self. It’s one, not two. The body does not exist. If you’re traveling in the desert and you see a body of water, compare the body of water to your body. You believe in it because you see it. Yet, when you get close to it it’s not there it’s an optical illusion. True? The same thing with your body you see it, you carry it, you think it’s yours and you have identified with it. Why? Because of your mind. Your mind is the culprit. When the mind becomes still, everything disappears and you become the Self, which you really are anyway. You have to use any method you have to, to quiet the mind. You must ask yourself, “Who am I? What is the source of the I? Where did the I come from?” And then follow the I to its culmination. The I becomes like the mirage, doesn’t exist. When you follow the I deep inside your heart, you will find that the I never existed. Remember also, that everything else is attached to the I. Every problem, the ego, the mind, everything is attached to this I. So when the I is transcended, so is everything else and you’re free. But the important point tonight is this: When you say, “I am not the body.” Realize that there are not two of you, there’s only one. It means the appearance of a body does not exist in reality. You are consciousness, you are the Self and that is the only reality and nothing else exists. Any questions about that? SD: It seems once you’ve explained it, you can almost just say, “I-am, is not the body.” And that seems more clear to me saying that. R: If you’re saying, “I am is not the body,” then what is the body? (SD: Illusion?) Exactly. As long as you remember that the body does not exist by itself, but it’s like a projection on the screen, then you can say whatever you want. The whole secret is to know who you are and you are the immortal Self. You were never born, you can never die. You have always existed. You are sat-chit-ananda. That’s who you really are just the way you are right now. Just the way you are. No changes have to be made. Just the way you are right now. You are God. You are consciousness. But do not mistake this with the body. I am not saying that the body is God. I’m saying that you are God. But I see you as consciousness. I see you as absolute reality, as pure awareness. That is God. If you identify your body with God you’re making a big mistake. Therefore when I tell you, “You are God” I am referring to your Self. Not your ego, not your mind and not your body. And when I refer to the term God, or consciousness, or absolute reality, I am referring to omnipresence. So when I say, “I am consciousness” I am not referring to Robert. I am referring to I-am omnipresence, which includes the whole universe, do you follow that? Everything is consciousness, nothing is left out. This is why we have reverence for all things, for all of life. For the mineral kingdom, for the vegetable kingdom, for the animal kingdom and for the human kingdom. For everything is God. Nothing is excluded. If you hate anything, you’re hating an illusion. If you feel out of sorts, or you feel sick, or you feel bad, or you feel angry, or you feel you’ve got a bad temper, you’re identifying with an illusion. This is false imagination. It’s not you. The more you think about these things the freer you become. Any questions? SN: Robert, is there any difference between an animate and an inanimate object? Or between a sentient or insentient? R: Only in a material sense. In the absolute there’s no difference. It is all pure consciousness, egoless, mindless. It’s all emptiness, all pure awareness. (SN: So physical things are the same things as people?) Same thing. But at a certain point in relativity, you call things sentient and insentient but in reality there’s no difference it’s all the same. (SN: I was reading that, only a sentient being can become Self aware of its own consciousness, how about inanimate objects?) Well inanimate objects cannot be aware at a relative level, because they’re inanimate in a relative level. But in reality there’s no relative level. So everything is consciousness. You’re probably speaking about Buddhism. The Boddhisatva says, “Only a sentient being can realize absoluteness.” At the level he’s speaking of, he’s right. But he’s speaking at a level. I am speaking of no level, of the absolute. The absolute is the absolute. It is non duality. SG: So can we say in the absolute sense that everything contains everything and nothing. R: Yes it’s the same, the same thing. Everything is nothingness and nothingness is everything. The question also arises: How am I to live my life, if I don’t exist? (laughs) How can I live? Again as I remind you all the time, you will be taken care of. As long as you believe that you are the body, there’s a mysterious power, that will guide you and lead you to your highest good, if you let go and let God. So at all levels you’re protected. In other words if you can’t see the absolute and you can’t understand it, that’s okay too. This simply means you must surrender. Surrender to God totally and completely and you will be totally protected and taken care of. But that means absolute surrender, total surrender. So you can use any level you like it doesn’t matter. Everything is in your favor. The whole universe is your friend. There is nothing against you and there is nothing that can or wants to harm you, nothing. It’s all in your imagination. When you’re suffering from anxiety or depression, when you think the world is against you or you think you have problems, try to realize that you think that from a human standpoint – And even if you can’t believe that you’re not human yet – Let go of your problems. Give them to God and God will take care of everything for you. Also you came here karmically to do something at that level. So you’re going to do whatever you came here to do. What I’m trying to tell you, you’ve got no problems. There’s absolutely nothing wrong. All is well and everything is unfolding as it should. See as we sit in quietness, what’s going on in your mind right now? What are you thinking about? Can’t you see that’s your whole problem? Your thinking. If there’s no one left to think, you would be self-realized, but as long as you allow yourself to think, you’re causing yourself one problem after another. It’s like looking at a movie and you know who the killer is in the movie. So you start thinking about a solution. How the police are going to catch the killer and what the killer should do to get away from the police. That’s what you do in your human self. You cause all these abstractions. You cause all the problems yourself and you don’t know it. You believe that your problems are coming to you from the outside. But they are not. You are creating them out of your mind. And you’re perpetuating them by thinking about them everyday, thinking, thinking, thinking. And the worst thing you can do, is to think how you can solve your problems. Because when you think how you can solve your problems, you are admitting you’ve got a problem that needs to be solved by some human way. And you may or you may not solve it that way. But if do solve the problem another one will pop up some where else and there’s no end to it. The only way to get rid of your problems is to quiet your mind, go within, and realize the Self. To that extent will your problems dissipate. Mary why don’t you tell the class about what you told me about your problems. Would you like to share that? SM: A lot of dissension at home. My husband doesn’t want me to come to these meetings, very much against everything spiritual now, and it has become very very hard on me and I’ve followed pretty much the way Robert talks to us and all of a sudden, the problems are still there, but I’m very happy. I have changed, the problems haven’t changed, but I’ve changed. And I can face it all now. And it doesn’t bother me. Today when Robert and I got in the car and he said, “Gee you look happy Mary,” and I said, “I am happy, I really am.” So, really, you change, not the problem and I really learned it works that way. R: And that’s the first step. The next step after that is everything else will change too. It has to. SL: So it’s the attitude, on this plane it’s the attitude that happens first? (R: Yes.) And then everything else will follow? R: Exactly, and patience is the key, because things may seem to get relatively worse, before they get better. That’s called chemicalization. Thing’s are beginning to happen. It seems that every-thing’s going to blow up and get relatively worse sometimes, not all the time. That’s when you have to hold on real tight. Then all of a sudden there’ll be a peace and a calm and everything will change into goodness and happiness and harmony. SK: The way to have patience is to accept, have acceptance? R: No you don’t really accept. I don’t like to use that term. What you do you turn from it and you go within and see the truth. And the truth is that you are the immortal Self. You are not the situation. And you are not the body or the circumstance. (SK: You’re accepting reality.) You’re accepting reality, yes, that’s a better term. (SK: The truth.) And when you accept reality. Reality starts from you and expands into the world, because you have formed a new creation. The world becomes your reality that you’ve accepted and everything becomes beautiful. SE: About three weeks ago, I had a sudden insight. I recognized that I was consciousness and not the body. Seems so obvious after thirty years not understanding what it meant. And that I create the world. Whatever the I is, creates the world. You, the body is just a small part of consciousness. But I haven’t understood absolute consciousness. Consciousness to me still means all of the images, changing, changing, and interacting, but I don’t know what’s before the images, consciousness, absolute consciousness, how do I find that? R: This is called parabrahman, absolute reality, absolute consciousness. By denying the world within yourself, by watching and not reacting. And you go deeper and deeper and deeper, till the whole thing disappears. SD: Isn’t that the fourth fundamental that you gave us, more or less apply in that case. (R: Explain that.) Well, the fourth fundamental is that self-realization can be discovered by eliminating what it is not. So, I feel that is what is meant. R: Yes. When you see these images and whatever you’re still seeing you say, “Not this, not this.” (SE: Neti-neti.) Exactly, and you go deeper and deeper and everything will dissolve into consciousness. But remember, you yourself, the way you are now, are absolute consciousness. So don’t think you’ve got to drop your body. There is no body to drop. And that’s the point and that’s the hardest part for people to understand. No body exists that you have to get rid of. I’ve seen very advanced people, who’ve been practicing for years like you just said and they’re still saying, “Boy when I get rid of this body then I’ll be free.” There is nobody to get rid of. Like the sky is blue again. You take me outside and you say, “Robert see the sky, it’s blue.” I look and I say, “Yes,” but in reality there’s no sky and there’s no blue. There’s only atmosphere. It’s like the rope and the snake. In the dark you see a rope coiled up and you think it’s a snake. But upon investigation you realize it’s only a rope. And you’ll never be scared of the rope and the snake again. So when you see bodies, images, whatever, your own body in particular. You realize what appears to be my body is pure consciousness and my body does not exist as it appears. And the more you can meditate on that the greater the reality will come to you that this is so and you become free or you awaken to your freedom, just the way you are. This is why like I always tell you, “What are you doing with your life? What’s more important than finding your Self?” Everything else is just a fleeting picture. It’s here to day and gone tomorrow. You have to be true to your Self. And really know where you are and what you’re really made out of. Like I say many times, there are so many students who profess to love this truth and they live for it and can’t wait for it and that’s all they can do. Yet, if they won the lottery and have thirty or fifty-million dollars we’d never see them again. For they’d be out celebrating and going crazy. So where are you really? The understanding of course is not a way out. The money will be spent. If you make investments you have to worry about the IRS or about people trying to steal your investments. There are always problems in the human world, always problems. Turn within and really find reality. As I mentioned last week to you, even the times I was in India and I met with all these Sinyasis and you know Sinyasis they’re renunciates and they’re sort of like Bhodhisatvas they’re supposed to be real high. Yet in reality, these Sinyasis never had anything to give up, or to renunciate, because they never owned anything to begin with. And the first people that give them any money, they get rid of their swami outfits and they go to town. They put on new suits and they become a gentleman, so-to-speak. So you never know how you’re going to turn out. You never know what you’re made out of. But if you keep turning within enough and you cry for realization. You cry for God, you have passion for God like you have for a football game. Something will give and something will happen. But you have to have that passion and it has to come first in your life. And you start in the morning as soon as you open your eyes. You may ask yourself the question, “Who is it that’s awake?” and the answer will come, “I am.” “Who is it that slept? I did,” or “Who is it that dreamt?” “I did” and you will notice that the I is always there. So you continue by asking yourself, “Where did this I come from? The I that is present in all these three states of consciousness? Where did it come from?” and you abide in the I. You abide in the I and you follow the I to its source, until the I totally disappears, like the sky, and the blue, like the mirage in the desert. The I is an illusion it does not exist. And when the I disappears, I-am will shine again in all its glory and splendor. And that’s a beautiful way to get out of bed in the morning. It’s a beautiful way to wake up. But you have to remember to do these things. And not get up thinking about a cup of coffee or thinking about your problems or what you’re going to wear or whatever. And the worst thing you can do in the morning is turn on the TV because those things stay with you all day. It keeps you from going within. Forget about newspapers, forget about the TV for a while. The world will still go on, save yourself. If you find yourself in a burning building, you do not stop to admire the pictures on the wall. You get out of the building as fast as possible. So you find yourself engulfed in maya. That’s like a burning building. While you still have time before you leave your body, find out who you are. Know the truth and the truth will make you free. Let’s play some music. (music played) (tape break as Robert continues abruptly) R: …believes they’re the body. As long as you believe you are the body, there’s reincarnation, there are souls, there’s God, there’s the world, there’s the universe. And there’s getting enlightened. But as soon as you realize you’re not the body all that ceases. SM: Robert what about the people who don’t become enlightened at this particular time? R: There’s no such thing. But if you still believe you are the body and you happen to throw your body off and you believe you are the body, then you come back more advanced. (SD: So you get credit for these courses huh? Even if we don’t pass. Even if we don’t graduate.) (laughter) That’s right you do. There’s a gigantic accounting system that takes care of everything. SD: But that’s within worlds of karma and reincarnation right, which don’t apply once you’re realized. (R: Exactly.) But Mary the things that umm, realization gets you off the karmic wheel. The rules are different once you’re realized and you realize all of that was always nonexistent. R: But again I must emphasize. I’ll say it again, that this is sort of a dangerous teaching because when I say there are no rules, it gives some people license to do whatever they like. But they don’t realize that as long as they’re doing some evil some place, they believe that they’re the body and they have to suffer accordingly. If you become realized you leave everybody alone. SN: Robert when you said you could do whatever you want with the body, you can throw it in the garbage can, at the same time everything becomes holy, right? R: In the last reality, in the last analysis, everything is holy. But by throwing it in the garbage can doesn’t make it less holy. (SN: Throw it in a holy garbage can.) The garbage can is holy to begin with. (SK: But it doesn’t make it any more holy?) No, doesn’t matter. If you want to go through all these rituals of death, go ahead. Do whatever you like. (SD: They’re almost necessary as long as we identify with the body, aren’t they, because they’re all a part of the dream, the same dream.) Yes, as long as you identify with the body everything is going to disturb you. You’ll never find peace, no matter what you do. (SD: But I mean as you go through the rituals of death you might re-remind yourself that you are doing that in the body and the higher truth is that it’s not real.) Yes, when you leave your body you take a rest and you’re able to see all these things. Then you get pulled back again and you have another chance. SD: Didn’t you say something about, for seven days after death and seven days after a babies birth that they know they are realized? R: You become aware, yes. For approximately seven days. (SK: After death?) After death. (SD: And immediately after physical birth as well. So little babies aren’t so dumb as we thought?) No. SM: Have you ever seen a new baby? It never looks at the face or the eyes, always looks above the head I’ve always noticed that. (R: That’s true.) And depending on what type of person they look at they sometimes scream to get away from them and others they’re just so glad to be near them. R: A baby is real pure until the parents get a hold of them. Then it’s spoilt. SG: Does the nature of the child say something about what the child’s going to end up like? So if the baby is very quiet and sweet and good natured… (R: Not necessarily.) (SK: But probably in its young years, you get indications from them?) (R: You can and you can’t.) SD: That would be karmic wouldn’t it? (R: Everything is karmic, yes) SU: I think behavioral scientists try to stand on their heads to prove that the child grows up, like from seven and they’re already fixed, but I don’t believe that. I think people change continuously with the world. (R: Anything is possible.) Anything, absolutely. SM: What they say In the Catholic religion, get a child before they’re seven years old and you’ll have… (R: Lifetime Catholic.) Yeah, fixed (laughter) It’s a guilt complex. R: That’s what Khrushchev used to say. (SM: Pardon me?) Khrushchev, he says the same thing, “Give me a child at the age of five and I’ll give you a lifetime communist.” (SM: Yeah, I know. He must have got that from the same place as me.) SL: Admitting that he thought he was God. SU: Also the training of a young child during Nazism in Germany. And they try to instill in the child but I don’t think that works either. R: Everything is karmic, if it works it’s karmic if it doesn’t it’s karmic. There’s no escape from that, as long as you believe you’re the body. (SU: As long as what?) You believe you’re the body. (SU: And yet we take care of our body, we feed it and we exercise it.) Sure. It’s like going to the movies. You pay to get into watch the movie. You see all these pictures on the screen and you cheer, or you scream, or you holla, or you’re afraid, then you go home. (laughter) SE: The process of dis-identification with the body or with the ego is basically a problem of the mind, it’s a process in the mind? It’s the mind that realizes. R: Yes, the mind is the culprit. Because of the mind you have a body and an ego. (SE: And because of the mind you lose your body too?) Yes. That’s why it’s so simple. Quiet the mind and everything disappears. SD: Including the mind, right? (R: Including the mind.) It annihilates itself? R: Because the mind is only a conglomeration of thoughts. So the more you quieten the more it dissipates. And when there’s no mind, there’s no world, there’s no body, there’s nobody. Your free. SN: The way to quieten the mind is through self-inquiry, right? (R: That’s the best way.) Because they say that people that like to quiet the mind will renounce the world or go away to a cave. The mind is no different in the cave than it is in the world. SD: Probably worse, because that’s all you’d do would be to think. (R: Yes, exactly.) SK: But maybe best to purify it, have a sub-confrontation with it. R: You’ll go crazy. If you can’t take it in the world or the market place, you’ll be worse off in the cave. (SN: You can’t force it, you have to let it happen of itself?) The mind appears to be very very powerful and it will overwhelm you. So if you go away by yourself and you’re not developed, you’ll scream and you’ll holla and you’ll run back home. You can’t force it, no. You have to watch it. Become the witness to your thoughts and it’ll dissipate. SK: What is the brain? R: The brain is nothing, it’s a part of the body. It’s the electrical system for the body. (SK: Takes care of the body.) Yeah. (SK: Does it have anything to do with thought?) No. (SD: So the brain and the mind are not the same.) No they’re not. (SU: Those are just parts of functioning of the body to some extent.) The brain is for the body. SK: You know they’ve done experiments where they tap certain places of the brain and then the person thinks different… (R: Sure.) Is that how the mind, the thoughts are embedded in the body even they say that, people who do massage, they tap into a place where someone has stored anger, emotion, or thoughts, or all of them. R: That’s all on the physical-mental level. (SK: Right so they can be interwoven so often.) Yes, but the brain has only to do with the body. The mind has to do with thoughts about the brain. (SK: So it’s just as any other part of the body our thoughts could be stored with emotions.) Oh yes, and then you can unstore them. (SK: Yeah, but you don’t have to do it, if you’re not relating to the body?) Umm. (SK: You can just do it by dissolving the mind so-tospeak.) Oh yes, that’s the best way, because if you do it the other way, they maybe healed for a while. (SK: And then you can restore it?) But something else comes up. And even if you heal the body from this life, you have other lives to deal with, it never ends. (SK: Yeah, it’s just helpful on a relative level. It could free someone up enough to indulge in a spiritual discipline.) Yes it can, but that’s still under the laws of karma. It was meant to be that way. Whenever you see a situation, before you react to it, ask yourself, “Who sees?” SD: Sometimes reactions seem instantaneous could you ask yourself, “Who’s reacting?” R: Yes you can, whatever is easier for you. But I’m referring, before you react. Most people are confronted by the situation and react with anger or whatever. So before that happens remember to catch yourself and ask yourself, “Who sees?” Then the reaction will dissipate and you’ll become quiet. (SU: You said to ask yourself, “Who sees?”) Who sees the situation like this. For instance if you’re watching the war in Iraq and you become angry over it. Catch yourself and ask yourself, “Who is affected by this?” or “Who sees?” same thing. (SD: Or who responds, right?) Whatever helps you. Who responds, who’s affected, who sees. (SL: And if the answer’s I?) Go right into the teaching. “Who am I? Where did the I come from? What’s the source of the I?” (SL: And don’t react?) Don’t react. (SD: Because it’s the ego to whom it comes.) SK: But don’t believe that, find out. (laughter) R: Jay brought some food. (break in tape) (conversations about reincarnation and transmigration) Robert: It’s very rare but it happens to some people. SH: What would occasion it to happen? Would there be something that they’ve done…? R: If some-ones real vile, real mean, real bad and sort of like an animal, they’ll come back as an animal. SE: I’d like to come back as a rock. (SD: You would?) It’s a joke! (laughter) R: Anything is possible. SD: But all within the context of maya right? (R: Yes.) No one really comes back because there’s no where to go. (R: Exactly.) So if we could just wake up, we would just get off that wheel you know. R: Well, wake up! (SD: That’s a good reason to wake up as far as I’m concerned.) Who tells you you’re asleep. What makes you think you’re asleep? (SD: I know you tell us, we already are awake. Words are inadequate, if I could be aware of being awake. If I could realize it.) If you live in the moment, in the second, you’re awake. But every time your mind thinks you’re caught up in maya. (SD: If you live in the moment is that the same as being one-pointed?) No, no, no. One-pointed is to make your mind go after one thing. Go after the thing, quiet the mind. (SD: Oh so it’s just an aid in the body?) Then you become one-pointed. But to awaken you just have to rest in that second without thinking. (SD: So one-pointedness could lead to quieting the mind, which could lead to awakening?) Yes, but just think of the second. Nothing is happening in the second and you’re awake. SM: Robert, I thought it would come like a sound big blast. For one week? R: No, on the contrary, nothing happens. SD: I thought you said it was like a flash of light? Or were you just being symbolic. R: No, that’s before awakening. When you’re really awaken you just open your eyes and you’re awake. (SD: One minute you’re not and the next minute you are?) It’s like being in a room full of darkness and you flash on the light. (SD: But I thought you said it was, like a flash of light?) That’s before. That’s when you have experiences. SD: Umm. I thought maybe you were talking symbolically cause it’d be like seeing the light. Like I always thought in the Bible the light that shone around, Saul or Paul was symbolic of his seeing the light or awakening? R: Symbolic, yes. That’s true, yes. That’s what I said, you’re in darkness then you turn on the light, that’s it! No big deal. (SD: Oh, but what a big deal. It is a big deal because it’s what we all are seeking.) If you seek too much it won’t happen. (laughter) Stop seeking. Just become. Be. Be your Self. SG: I think a good analogy is when she was talking about concepts and Being here and being there. If you’re in a day dream state there are no concepts to have and there’s no one to have them or the moment between thoughts. Then you’re not aware of any different states and you’re not even aware of the unified state. You’re just aware. And there’s no one else necessarily to be, and I used the analogy before of the I looking outward and everybody being a part of that I, looking outward. It might help with the conceptual day dream state. SD: I think the only reason I did speak in terms of levels was just for differentiating what we’re supposed to see in finite terms. SE: About two weeks ago I met Jean Dunn who was one of Nisargadatta’s students. And I was talking to her in a motel room in Torrence and she was visiting her mother who was in hospital. And I was very impressed by her and I said, “I really get the impression that you understand.” She got angry with me. She said, “You really didn’t get it” she said, “People would tell this to Maharaj all the time and he would get upset and say, “You don’t understand, you created me.” And she waved her finger in my face, like this and she said, “You created this body, you created the teachings that you’re understanding from me,” it was a wonderful experience, I spent a week going around owning everything. The walls, the stars, it’s all mine I created it. (R: She’s right.) I created the teachings, Iraq, Saddam everything. (R: And you created God.) I created God (R: She’s right.) SK: What do you think of Nisargadatta’s, the guy that’s taken up his works? (SE: Ramesh?) (SN: Balsekar?) SE: I like him a lot. I like Ramesh. He’s very intellectual though. Theories, conceptualizations, tying together physics and philosophy and it’s just too much thinking. Maharaj wasn’t at all a thinker. Ramesh just confuses me sometimes with all of his conceptualizations. I like to your simplicity, very clear. I like my simplicity. (Laughter) R: It’s the same with Ramanas teachings. The people who write the Mountain Path, they’re going to be in San Diego next month. The great grand nephew of Ramana Maharshi. But they’re all intellectual. I’ve seen them before in India. SK: Who’s Nome, is that a person? (R: Nome, ask Sam.) (SG: I don’t know him.) SD: He leads an Ashram in Santa Cruz. (SK: Santa Cruz. So there’s a book with Ramana Maharshi that says, “From I to eternity”) R: How did you get that book. (SK: I just got it at the Bodhi tree probably, years ago.) Did you know that book is supposed to be, it’s a secret book. (SK: Well people get it and they go to the used book store and sell it when they want some money. (laughter) So I picked it up from there.) (Students discuss between themselves) SG: Is Nome in it with a picture of Ramana… R: No, that was the first one. There are now two versions. SK: “From I to eternity,” it’s a small little booklet. Essentially saying, come to our place and do meditation. (tape break as Robert continues) R: …He had a cave and he had other yogis upstairs in the other caves and they used to throw big boulders at him and try to kill him. They rolled boulders down. He would just look up and look at the boulder and it was like a fly bothering him. He’d just stand there, he couldn’t care less and they’d push these big boulders down at him. And they’d always miss. And this went on for months because more people used to come and see him more than the other people. So you never know what people are going to do. SE: Was that when he first came to the mountain? R: When he was at Iskander Ashram. After he was there about fifteen years. See there’s so many things going on in the world, so many movements, so many teachers. That’s why the true teacher is within yourself. Contact your Self. Find your Self. And leave everything else alone. Try not to make your mind complicated. Because there’s so many books, there’s so many teachers there are so many movements. You have to go where your heart takes you and never condemn anybody. Just leave them be. There’s enough room in this world for all. And everybody goes to what they need in the moment. In other words if you have a rotten disposition, you’ll go to a rotten teacher. (laughter) So you’re always in your right place. SL: Is that what happened to me. (R: Who knows?) I’m kidding. (laughter) SN: Of course when you look at the world you see yourself. That’s what Ed was saying. R: Everything is in its right place. SE: Also, a big recognition of mine was, is I have no choice in my spiritual path it’s unfolding. The person feels as if he’s making these kinds of acts of will and practices and so forth but it’s just a bubble. (R: True.) It’s deeper than that, it’s deeper than the person. That I’m here, it’s not my choice, it’s foreordained a long time ago. (R: Exactly.) SD: That’s what we talked about last Sunday, karma. How everything is preordained, even decisions that you seem to face and the choices that you seem to make is predestined. SK: Does your person still do spiritual practices everyday? (SE: I lay in bed all day long when I’m not working) That’s what I do. (SE: Very advanced.) (laughter) I use to be concerned about that, now I don’t know what to think of it. SE: I’ve been absolutely depressed for two years, I’m not interested in the world anymore. People say how depressed you are, you get out and do things and I say I’m happy lying in bed and just being inside of myself. I don’t even sit in meditation anymore, it’s too much effort. (laughter) SN: What did Nisargadatta teach about meditation. (SE: Same as Robert, I would say.) R: He taught for whom is there meditation? Who needs to meditate? But again don’t let it throw you. Because many people need to meditate. (SK: What did you say then?) I said there are many people that should meditate. SN: I almost feel as if I meditate to learn that I didn’t have to meditate. SK: What about sleeping, like we seem to be sharing some kind of the same experience, but I’m concerned about that. R: Well, if you’re really on the right path your body will do the right things whatever it has to do. As long as you don’t get in anybody’s way and you’re not cruel to anybody else you should do what you want. (SK: But my only problem is my own conceptions of what I think I should be doing or what I’m used to in the past.) Are you happy? (SK: I’m both, I’m not sad. There’s no sadness.) Then there’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing. SD: When you talked of depression, could he not ask himself, “Who is depressed?” R: Of course. Yes. SE: It’s not a painful depression, it’s just a lack of interest. (SD: Whether it’s painful or not, it’s the ego who’s depressed.) It feels like the mourning for the person. The person is dying and there’s a part of me that’s mourning the death of the person. (SD: The ego would resist the violation of the Self.) SK: Like a transition, also part of the transition. SL: I think isn’t that what somebody else said before, someone’s philosophy he said that, you mourn for the person, the body, the self that’s dying and later on the next… (SK: Celebrate?) …yeah and the next step there’s a little more enlightenment. R: That’s possible too. All these things are possible. SN: Robert, can the ego resist annihilation? R: It appears to, but in reality if there’s no ego who’s to resist? But it appears to resist, it appears to fight you. But when you become the witness and you do not pay any attention to it, it will subside by itself. (SN: Well when you become the witness is that something that happens or can happen instantaneously?) Yes. SD: But it’s something you can do by plan. You can consciously become the observer. SN: But say if you become the witness, doesn’t the ego fight back? R: Not if you become the witness. Because if you become the witness to the fighting then there’s nobody to react, it becomes weak. The ego becomes very weak and subsides by itself. It’s like when you have a friend, And your friend is talking to you, talking to you, talking to you, but you don’t answer your friend, you just look at him. What’s going to happen? Your friend will walk away and leave you alone. (laughter) Same principle. When your ego sees that there’s no resistance, there’s nobody left to fight. It becomes weak, and weak, and weak and weak and weak until it dissipates entirely. SN: Robert I’ve noticed in self-observation, that there’s a stream of thoughts and there’s a time when I’ll be observing those thoughts and then there’s another time when I’ll get involved in those thoughts and then I’ll come back and try to observe them again. So is this an ego, this thing? R: Well you are consciousness, so just observe the whole procedure. Observe what is happening but don’t react. Stay in your true nature as consciousness. SD: So when you say self-observation is being a witness, there’s nothing magical about being the witness. (R: No.) Self observation is witnessing. (R: Same thing.) SK: And it’s magical. (R: Why do you call it magical?) Well because of the effects that it has on the ego. (R: It’s actually normal.) Yeah. SE: You were with Ramana for two years. (R: Yes.) And how long was it after, before you really got what he was teaching you? R: Well I didn’t go there to be taught, I actually went there just to see him. I had everything before that, whatever it is. I was there two years before he died. (SD: Did you stay there the whole two years?) No. I went back and forth because he was very sick, he could hardly walk. (SD: And you couldn’t stand to see that?) No. I was able to have an audience with him twice. SD: How was it being in his presence. (R: Great!) I mean, did you feel elevated, did you feel like you’d known him all your life, did you identify with him or were you in awe of him? R: Well if you recall the story, I used to see him when I was a baby in my crib and then I saw his picture in a book and then I went to India. SD: So you’d known him all your life? (R: Just about.) SK: Does he ever come to you taking on that same visible form? In dreaming or… (R: Lots of times.) SG: How old were you when you went to India? (R: Eighteen.) A young age to be traveling in India. (R: I know.) (SL: Bet you were wild.) (laughter) SK: And that was a wild time about nineteen forty what? (R: 1947.) SU: You know the four rules and the three vehicles and all that – It’s like, I’m not reading anything from all the different philosophies and everything so it’s like whatever meditation or whatever I do it’s just sort of like by feel and if I hear things that make sense to me I just do it. (R: Umm that’s good.) So the four rules that you say to follow – the four principles – does that help people to attain a certain thing. It seems to, it’s like all one and the same just broken down into different levels. R: It’s all the same that’s true. It helps you to quiet the mind. SU: I couldn’t remember what you said the last time I couldn’t remember all the steps, different steps that you said, three steps like “Who Am I?” and you said in between exhaling then you say something else and the last thing is something about the God within us… (R: Oh that’s the mantra.) …yeah the mantra, I kind of like skip through the thing and just like – I couldn’t remember it — it’s like “Who Am I?”, I am the God within, basically something like that. R: See I give all these things to stop your mind from thinking. (SU: But it’s different ways for finding your own…) Different ways of getting there. As long as you can still your mind use whatever method you have to. (students discussion) SE: The teachings themselves are something to still the mind by satisfying it, isn’t that true? (R: That’s true, right.) It gives you something to nibble on and then you can rest with your food and you don’t have to think anymore because you have faith. You believe and with that there’s a settling within yourself. R: That’s why I share these various methods. That’s why I share all these methods, because when your mind starts to think, catch it right away, don’t let it take you over. And use one of the methods to stop the thoughts. Change the thoughts. Use whatever method you have to. By asking yourself, “To whom comes the thoughts?” By doing the mantra, “Who am I, I am he, I am not the body.” (SD: By breathing “I-am,” you said.) By doing I-am. Whatever you have to do, do it! SU: Also I know that in metaphysics which is a level lower than whatever. In metaphysics the belief is when you meditate, you should be sitting up straight so that all your chakras could be reached when you breath in and out. Does that make any difference or…? R: That’s a yoga technique, but for whom are there chakras? For the ego. (SU: So in other words if one is laying down to meditate because it’s like the lowest level of energy whatever…) Not really. The only problem with lying down is you fall asleep, that’s all, that’s why I tell you not to lie down. SD: But it doesn’t really matter does it, as long as you’re quieting your mind. R: It doesn’t matter but most people fall asleep, especially beginners. SU: I do it both ways, usually when I wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is go into that and before I go to sleep, you know I calm myself down and get into it. R: I know a Kriya meditator who does transcendental meditation, who has been meditating since the sixties, two hours in the morning, two hours in the evening and they’re just the same. Nothing has happened. (SU: If they lay down you say?) No they sit in meditation. SD: Their minds are doing mantras when they are not doing anything. (R: They’re doing the mantras, yeah.) They seem to believe that the end result is a quieting of the mind, but quieting of the mind is only a step to realization. (R: Umm.) They see it as an end not a means. R: Some become a little more peaceful, but it’s all good I guess. SU: So once you quiet the mind then what do you do? (R: You do nothing.) That was easy you know, I lay down, I quiet the mind and there’s nothing. I wake up in the same space, exactly where I left off. SK: Ed don’t even bother getting out of bed. (laughter) SE: Very advanced right? (laughter) School of lazy buddhists. (laughter) R: It’s all good. Let’s sing “Oh God beautiful.” (tape ends)