Transcript:
Robert: Last Thursday, no what’s today, Thursday? Last Sunday. Someone asked the question about holding on to the I. And I said imagine the I is like a rope and you’re holding on to the I and you’re going down the rope, to the source of the rope. You’re finding the source of the I. And when you get to the end, you let go. And someone mentioned, “Oh I experienced that. I entered the void and I feel wonderful, is that right?” And I said, “No that’s wrong.” I didn’t elaborate, and a few people called me and asked me, “Why did I say that’s wrong? Don’t we want to attain the void, or emptiness, or nirvana, or absolute reality?” We really don’t want to attain anything. We just want to let go of the other things that tell us that there’s something to attain. And as long as you say, “I have experienced the void.” That’s laughable because when you experience the void, the I has merged and there’s nothing to experience. Do you follow? SH: Yeah. Robert: As long as you say, “I experienced this or I am experiencing bliss, or I feel so happy,” then you’re not. Because I is left. (laughs) SH: Yeah. Robert: I has to go. Who can experience bliss? There is nobody left to experience bliss. There’s no one left to experience anything. It becomes ineffable, beyond explanation. And then they asked me another question ??? So they said, “Well what happens then?” And I said you become more human. Now what do I mean by that? I mean your quality about you, your radiant quality, your radiance expands. You become omnipresent. You become the universe. You realize the universe is an emanation of your Self, is a projection of your Self. That’s what I mean by becoming more human. You become lovable, joyous, compassionate. You develop all the Advaita qualities, by themselves. So your humanhood becomes selfless. You no longer think about I and me and mine. As a matter of fact you hardly think. You just become and of course there’s nothing to become. You just remain your Self. The Self that you truly are. You are that Self and there’s nothing else. Now, people always want tools to work with and we always go back to the relative plane because of that. When I give you tools to work with, we have to go down to the relative plane, because reality has no tools. Reality has no process. In reality you do not have to meditate. You do not have to pray. You do not have to do mantras, reality is reality. Can you imagine God praying, to whom shall he pray? To himself? Can you imagine what you call God meditating? To whom shall he meditate? Therefore when you do all these rituals, it’s your so-called humanhood, which really doesn’t exist, that is doing the rituals. And you’re doing the ritual to discover that you don’t exist. Now, I have given the class three maya mantras, four principles and three vehicles. If you’re practicing that, that’s all you need because that’s enough to take of you for twenty lifetimes. I want to share something else with you tonight. But first, do you remember the four principles? Who remembers them? I’m looking at you people, you’re all new people. (laughter) Except for Sam and Horat. (Sam: I’m not here? (laughter)) SF: The first one is everything is a projection of the mind. The second is… SK: There’s no existence of the I, no prevailing, not born? SF: Oh, I was never born, I don’t exist and I’ll never die. I mean that’s the principle that says that. (laughter) R: If you don’t exist then what are you doing here? (laughter) SF: The third one is there is no self in anything or anybody. R: There’s no ego, no cause. (SF: And the fourth one is…) Let’s stick to the third one a little more. (laughs) It means that nothing has a cause. No thing has a cause in this world. No thing ever came into existence. No thing appears the way it appears, it’s an optical illusion. No thing has an ego, there’s no ego. There’s no basis for existence. What’s the fourth one? SF: The fourth one, in order to know the noble truth you’ll have to discard the untruth. R: Yes. Instead of looking for self-realization, deny that what isn’t self-realization. In other words you look at the body and you say, “Not this.” You look at the Iraq war, you say, “Not this.” You look at President Bush and you say, “Not this.” And you go on like that. You look at your own body, your own experiences, “Not this.” And when you’ve denied everything whatever is left is your Self. So we go in reverse. We’re not trying to become self-realized, we’re trying to remove the clouds that tell us we’re not and then we’ll shine through again. That’s good. Now about the three vehicles that you cross the ocean of samsarra. Jay. SK: The first one is a log. (R: The what?) A log. (R: A log? What do you mean log?) (laughter) What’s the first one? To be alone. The desire to be alone, for practice. (R: Where did the log come from?) (laughter) A log is lonely. (R: Oh I see.) I just said that, I wanted a sanscrit term that you never gave me for it. (R: What do you want a sanscrit term for?) Well, at first I wanted to understand it better and I thought that was the best way but really. (R: You speak english?) (laughter) SH: More impressive when said. (laughter) SG: Has a better ring to it. (laughter) SK: No, it’s much more than that. How do you describe sadhu-sangha or satsang? (R: How do you describe it? By silence.) Yeah, but how do you describe it to those who want to have something to grasp onto? (R: In simple English language.) So, satsang? (R: Sure.) What is satsang? (R: Being in sat, being in reality.) I guess we’re able to explain differently. R: No actually, if we don’t have to talk sanscrit we shouldn’t. We should speak languages that we know. Like Russian. (laughter) Okay so the first vehicle is an intense desire to be alone most of the time. Not because you want to be lonely, but because you can connect. When you’re by yourself, you can work on yourself more. You should be happy when you’re alone. You can see into yourself. You have more of an opportunity to connect with the infinite when you’re by yourself rather than when you’re with people. Therefore a person on a spiritual path like this especially hungers for time when they can be alone and really dive deep within themselves. And what’s the second one? SK: Well you know, the first one I just thought of something. For the person who’s alone a lot. Who does practice and is alone a lot. Another way maybe to look at it is, that on a relative level you’re alone in the world. I’m talking relative, when you’re with people, you’re alone on a relative level. So you’re not going to be picking up or be concerned with their attitudes towards you etc, or affected by this and that and of course on an absolute level we’re not different. That is we’re all one, but on a relative level aloneness is also with people on a relative level. R: Well that’s okay, but actually when it comes to practice most people are disturbed by other people and when they are by themselves they can get more out of it. (SK: So that first vehicle is a conditional thing?) Not really, but it’s true of most people. (SK: So the second vehicle would be satsang?) Yes. The second vehicle is an intense desire to be at satsang, to come to meetings like this. A deep feeling to want this rather than to go to the movies, or bowling, or go drive your car off a cliff or whatever else you want to do. You have a strong desire to come to a class like this. That shows that something is opening in your heart. For actually think, think, what is it you like to do best. Watch TV, read comic books, go to movies, spend time with your friends, your worthless friends. (laughter) What do you really like to do? Be honest with yourself. If you’d rather come to satsang like this, then your heart is opening up, and that’s great. But don’t force yourself and don’t fool yourself. Rather when you’re alone work on yourself and the feelings will come by themselves. And what’s the third one? SF: Accompany of your peers or satsang. R: To want to be in the company of a Sage or your co-spiritual people. In other words if you have friends, you want them to be on some kind of spiritual path also. So they can help you and you can help them. There’s no sense in associating with a person that takes you to porno movies.(laughter) Unless that helps you get enlightened, I don’t know? (laughter) But usually you want to be with people that are like yourself. (laughter) Someones actually told me that. Someone really told me one time, they go and see porno movies because they get enlightened again. Their heart opens up.(laughter) SK: I like to talk about those things. (laughter) R: So what’s the fourth? SK: The fourth one, should probably be an amendment to the third is, what if you are too strongly attached? (R: I got you, there’s no fourth one.) (laughter) SK: So then the question arises… (R: What’s that question?) What if one gets too attached to a sadhu? To have sadhu-sangha, or particular sadhus or teacher one has? R: That’s up to the teacher to take care of. (SK: Really?) Sure. To make you become unattached. See how the dog is attached. He never comes to the owner. SH: He goes to everyone else. (R: Do you feed him?) Yes sure. Feed him, pat him, take him for a walk. (SK: Do you love that dog as much as you love the other dogs?) More. (SK: More? Wow.) He’s number one dog. R: So we’re now going to share, the three essential questions with you. And again this is also something you can work with, very important I think. The first question you pose when you first open your eyes in the morning and when you first get out of bed, as soon as you get up. The second question you pose at about noon time and the third question you pose before you go to sleep. If you work on these things you’re going to see fast results. The first question you pose to yourself is: “Where did I come from?” And remember when you do this, you do this as soon as you open your eyes in the morning. Before you can think of anything else and even if your mind starts thinking. Ask the question three times, to yourself. “Where did I come from? Where did I come from? Where did I come from?” Then you ask yourself, “What do I mean by that? Where did I come from? Am I referring to my body?” I just said, “Am I referring.” So I must mean, “Where did the I come from?Where did the I come from? Not my body, but the I that appears to be my body? Where did the I come from?” Then you ponder and you wait. Then you repeat it again, “Where did the I come from? I know I just slept, I dreamt and now I’m awake and notice that I say, “I,” all the time. I slept, I awake, I dreamt. Now, where did this I come from? Where did the I come from?” I is the first pronoun and everything I say seems to be, I. “I feel happy, I feel sad, I feel sick, I feel well, it’s always I. What does this mean? Well, I notice that everything is attached to I, in other words, I can’t see anything unless I put I first. I want to become realized. I am not realized. I need a teacher, I don’t need a teacher and so forth. You start to feel that the whole universe is attached to I, everything. So you say to yourself something like this, “This means that if I find the source of I, all my problems, my faults, my karma, my samskaras, everything will disappear because they’re all attached to I. Then you can say, “I – I, I – I,” like a mantra, “I-I.” And you’re realizing all the time that you’re going deeper and deeper in the I. Again it’s like holding onto a rope and you’re going down the rope to the source, “I – I,” never mentally come to the end of the rope. The end should come by itself, or the source. In other words, don’t say I’ve come to the source, for as I explained before you wouldn’t be able to say, “I came to the source,” if you came to the source, because the I will be gone. Everything is attached to the I and you simply go deeper and deeper and deeper, saying to yourself, “I – I, I – I, I – I.” Keep this up until you feel that you don’t want to keep it up any longer. Then get dressed and go about your business and forget about it. But do not come to any conclusion, that’s the worst thing you can do. The conclusion comes by itself. You just do the practice. Any questions about that so far? Okay, now at about 12 noon. It doesn’t have to be exactly 12 noon.(laughter) Don’t synchronize your watch. But around that time, when you’re sort of involved in the world. You can be working, you can be washing dishes or pots and pans. You can be watching a movie, you can be doing anything you like. But remember to do this. You ask yourself, “Where did the universe come from? Where did the universe come from?” And you begin to ponder that. The planets, the galaxies, the stars, the earth, worms, animals, birds, grass, trees, where did it all come from? Who sees it? I see it. We’re back to I again. When I sleep what happens to the universe? It seems to have disappeared and yet I still existed. But when I woke up, there was the world again. So it seems that I am experiencing the world. I am experiencing the universe. We’re back to I. What this means to me, is the universe is a projection, a manifestation of my mind. For when I close my eyes it disappears. I must be projecting the universe. Therefore again, if I get rid of the I, the universe will go too. For the universe only exists because I exist. Do you follow that? Again you begin to ponder I. You say to yourself, “I – I, I – I.” The reason you’re saying that is due to the fact that when you keep repeating I – I, you begin to condense the whole universe, including your body which begins to disappear, until only I is left. It’s like when you’re making a fire. You throw all the twigs in the fire, the leaves in the fire, wood in the fire, everything goes in the fire. But you have a stick with which to stir the fire. But in the end the stick’s got to go in the fire also. The stick represents the I. So everything is a projection of your mind, attached to your I. You say, “My mind.” I has a mind. I is attached to the mind. If I get rid of the mind the I goes with it and you will be no mind. Nothing with which to think and drive you crazy. So again you begin to practice, “I – I, I – I.” for as long as you can. Do not come to any conclusion. The conclusion will come of its own accord. Now you come to the evening, just before you go to sleep. Again you do not have to sit in meditation postures for this. You can lie down, you can sit anywhere, you can walk, you can stand, you can do whatever you like. You ask yourself the question, “Where did God come from?” We’re all hung up on God and some of us here, think it’s blasphemous to talk about God this way. Yet you have to inquire, “Where did God come from?” Then you begin to realize, when I was little I was indoctrinated in God in a religion, Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam whatever, but have I ever had an experience of God myself? How do I know that it’s true, where did this God come from? So God must be a preconceived idea. God must be a concept of mind. You say to yourself, “Even now while I discuss this with myself, I have a fear that comes inside because of blasphemy. I have been told that God is real and therefore it becomes blasphemous when I speak of God this way. But I want to know, where did God come from?” Then you begin to ponder again. God comes from my mind. God is an idea, a concept of which I don’t understand. And then you say, “I believe in God, I’m thinking of God, it is my concept.” So again, you get back to that again, to ‘I’ and you realize that God is also attached to I. Can you imagine that? God is attached to I. Think about this. If you weren’t aware of your sense of I, you wouldn’t believe in anything. For you have to say, “I believe in God. I believe in Allah. I believe in Jehovah. I, it’s always I, I, I. If there’s no I, who’s there to believe?” So we get back to I again. And you have to again follow the I-thread to its culmination. The idea now is to realize and know that God is attached to I. You don’t try to get rid of God, you transcend the I and God goes with it. So you say, “I – I, I – I,” the same thing, “I – I.” And God will begin to disappear because I will disappear. And when all these things disappear what will be left? Absolute reality. Pure intelligence. Total awareness. Ultimate oneness and you will be free. So those are your three essential questions. If you practice these things you will see fast results. Any questions? SK: Regarding number two. Let’s say Ramana was sleeping and someone put his foot in a hornets nest, do you think he would wake up physically? R: No. If you’re speaking of Ramana, he had these experiences when he was a boy. When he went to sleep he couldn’t wake up and his friends used to pick him up and take him out of his bed and put him on the hill and beat him up. And he didn’t feel a thing and when he woke up they would laugh. So he had a problem of waking up. (students laugh) SF: Is it a problem to wake up for the Jnani? R: Well it’s not a problem, what it is, is there’s no difference between waking and sleeping and death and birth. It’s all the same. A Jnani is awake during sleep. The material world is asleep, so the Jnani both functions in the world as a dream, but he’s always awake, at the same time. So he wouldn’t have any problem with that. SK: What determines whether a Jnani would be, according to someone else’s viewpoint would be awake or sleeping. Is it just the karma that would…? R: Well from somebody else’s viewpoint is according to their own karma. You see, the average person sees what your karma let’s you see. That’s how you come to conclusions. You say this is right and this is wrong. This is good and this is bad. This is such and this is such. It all has to do with karma. When there’s no karma there’s only one judger and that’s the Self, omnipresence. Everything becomes the Self. Everything becomes the Jnani. The Jnani is omnipresence himself. SH: What do you mean by omnipresent? R: I mean everywhere present at the same time. (SH: Under all circumstances, universally?) Under all circumstances, universally, the Jnani is consciousness itself. And consciousness is everywhere. It’s undivided, it’s self-contained. So the Jnani is aware that he is consciousness, self-contained. And everything is the Self, and I am that! I am is another name for consciousness. (SH: Then all forms of these entities have dissolved?) It’s all consciousness. (SH: There are no separate forms then?) There are no separate forms, but then again it’s like the Jnani is a mirror. And the images on the mirror of all the people in the world are images. Only the Jnani is aware he’s the mirror and everything that shines through him are images. So he’s in the images and also in the mirror. But if you try to grab the images, you grab the mirror because there are no images, the images don’t really exist. The Jnani is therefore aware of this all of the time, whether asleep, or awake, or whatever. (SH: They’re just phantom appearances?) Phantom appearances? In a way, they’re just images, they come out of the Jnani himself or out of consciousness. SR: They’re like nothingness, they’re not located anywhere. R: Nothing is located anywhere, that’s true. Nothing exists, even the images do not exist. Only pure consciousness exists. (SR: Can you say a Jnani that they’re really like talking about pure consciousness in a way, on any point but that would be ineffable.) Exactly. But for the sake of explanation we talk about images. As an example, all of you are looking at me. And if I ask each one, “What do you see?” I get twelve different answers or whatever. Because you’re telling me about yourself. (laughs) You can only see yourself wherever you look. That’s all you see. SH: And there’s no reference to time and space at all. R: Time and space does not exist. They appear to exist. There’s only one, it’s all condensed. But in the dream there appears to be multiples. The one appears to have split into many. But that’s the dream, so why talk about it. SF: Even if I don’t know about it. Whatever I see is only seeing myself. R: Yes. Seeing yourself. Yes. SR: You’d have to have a preconceived idea that the seeing is different than what you’re saying, to see it any other way though? R: That’s from Prarabdha karma, you’ve accumulated all these samskaras. So the ajnani sees all that on the marks of the world. SR: That gives you the sense that the seer is different from what’s seen. (R: Yes.) Because you’re carrying all that around with you. (R: Exactly.) Is that the second principle you were talking about that night, that you really are the world as it manifests. (R: You mean the third principle.) The first or the second, I can’t really remember, what principle, you have stress today because you’ve taken on the stressful world that appears before you? R: ‘I’ have taken on the world. Therefore don’t try to change the world, change the ‘I’. Transcend the ‘I’ and the world will go, because the world is attached to the ‘I’. SF: So the seer is different from the seen at just one level. But at another level, there is no seeing, so it’s not different than the seer? R: And there’s no seer. There is only consciousness. SL: That would apply to the I trying to watch the I or if I find I’m watching the I, it doesn’t become impersonal and there’s still an I doing the watching and it hasn’t come together. R: You have to ask yourself, “Who is watching?” (SG: The hall of mirrors?) Yes. SG: It’s when the object and the I has gone. SF: You explained one day Robert that there are actually not two I’s, it’s just one I, which is the real I. (R: Yes.) The supreme principle, which doesn’t identify with the body, sort of believes… R: The I is attached to your belief system. (SF: Right, but the I is only one, there is not two I’s?) There’s only one, but in the last analysis that has to go too. (SF: Right because still conceptual.) (laughter) Yes. SK: In the lowest analysis there are two I’s. (R: Yes. See there was one dog, he was I and then he turned into multiples.) And as soon as someone gets a gun there will be no dogs. R: Who would like to get me a glass of water? (SH: I would.) R: So how does all this grab you Sam? Sam: Could one say that the quickest way to this be silence after a period of time. (R: Oh yes.) If one could just sit in silence. (R: That’s the best way.) Because the concepts go, the ideas go. (R: But can you sit in silence? That’s the question.) Yeah, but what I’m saying if somebody did? (R: That’s it, everything turns into silence.) Everything just is, not even silence exists? (Robert receives water, student continues) Sam: Could one say theoretically, that even if ones mind wanders a lot and one has many thoughts, I think it is difficult for them to sit in silence. Even if they do that, even if they still sit in silence after a time will that not take care of itself? R: Everything helps. Only it may take a thousand years. (laughter) But when you’re saying, “I – I” you’re coming toward silence, that’s the whole idea. You say, “I – I. Where did I come from? I – I, I – I” And you will notice the space between I – I becomes bigger and bigger and greater and greater, until automatically you stop saying “I – I.” And then you’re in the real silence, what you’re talking about. But that’s how you get there. But it’s a little naive to think that the average person can just sit down and be silent, they can’t, because their thoughts are so powerful, it won’t let them sit still. That’s why I give you the practices. So you’ll have a tool to work with and you can do something. SK: Isn’t there also trouble that people think they’re in a thoughtless state when they’re really not and they need something to go beyond that state. To get to the real silence. R: Of course, that’s right. SY: What about just continuing this no matter what you’re doing all day long, trying to do this rather than separate times of the day? R: If you can manage, it’s great. But in the beginning you shouldn’t be a fanatic. You should sort of balance everything. It will bring you to the same goal. Because from experience working with people I found, if you take the average person out of the world and you start doing this all of a sudden, 24 hours a day, they can go crazy. (laughter) SH: Have you had them go crazy? (R: And that’s good some times.) SK: Or they just give it up and go back into the world (R: Yes.) And not try spiritual life again. (R: You have to balance everything.) SY: I’ve been trying to do it for years and years and years but I find that I haven’t been able to. It’s just whenever I can think of it. I keep thinking that I should be able to do it, 24 hours a day for I know it would work. R: Well don’t think of that at all. Just be gentle with yourself. Love your Self a little more and focus on your Self, when you can. But be gentle and make it simple. Do not have the feeling, “I have to do this.” It’ll all happen by itself. Everything will happen by itself if you allow it to. (SY: Part of my mind knows that, the other part can’t stop.) Then you have to ask yourself the question, “Who feels like this? To whom do these feelings come?” And follow it down. You can go right back to I. You’re working with the I. Follow the I-thread to the heart and you’ll become free, gently, slowly. Do you know what kind of chair I need Henry? I need a softer chair that I can sink into, with the arms further apart. (laughter) (SH: How about cushions?) (general talk and laughter) R: If you practice these principles, all the things I gave you, shared with you, you will actually see fast results. It works. But you’ve got to do it, you’ve got to make it happen. I cannot do it for you. I can lead you to the gold mine but you’ve got to dig yourself. SH: Well they’re all three essentially the same, following the I to its source. R: They’re essentially the same, yes, God, the universe. (SF: What?) Anyone else? SK: The Self, God, yeah. (SF: The body, God and the…) R: They’re all the same. The whole trick is to realize that the whole universe, God and everything else is attached to your I. And when you allow the I to go into the heart, the I will disappear and pure reality will shine forth. SH: The heart is the source of the light. (R: The heart is the source?) Where is it located? Where the I disappears? R: On the right side of the chest. We’re not speaking of the physical heart. We’re speaking of the spiritual heart. And we’re not speaking of chakras. We’re speaking of the heart on the right side of the chest, which is only a point of reference. SG: When I meditate, I try to find — locate the heart on the right side. I’m always looking for the heart on the right side. Is that correct? R: Yes, you don’t try to find it, you just become it. You are the heart, that’s you. The heart is the Self. It’s only called the heart for a point of reference. Due to the fact, that as a point of reference, spirituality awakens quicker, when you focus your attention that way. SG: So you should focus your attention on it? (R: Yes.) Yes? (R: Yes, on the right side.) SH: Are you sure it’s on the right side? It seems to me to be in the centre. (laughter) R: Well if you like the centre Henry, enjoy it! But through all spiritual teachings, the spiritual heart is only on the right side. SG: Whether you’re right handed or left handed. R: That’s right, that is a good point as a matter of fact. When you say something like this, “Who me?” Where do you point? On the right side. (S: Even if you’re left?) Even if you’re left you point to the right side of your chest. Whenever you talk about yourself, you always point to the right side of your chest. You’re pointing to your spiritual heart, to your Self, that’s your real Self. SG: I want to talk about satvic food on the spiritual path. R: Well, satvic food automatically comes to you, when you’re thinking of the I. When you’re practicing Jnana Marga, automatically you will know what to eat. But satvic food is always the best food, which consists of fruits and vegetables and grains and a little milk, that’s always the best. But this is why on this path we do not discuss too much yoga. How to sleep, what to eat. Nothing is really necessary. Except getting rid of the I. On the path of getting rid of the I, everything else will come automatically. You will be drawn to the right foods, to the right people to the right employment, to right action. Everything will take care of itself when you’re focusing on I. Look how happy that dog is. Does the dog think of I? The dog has nothing to think about. The dog just exists, he doesn’t know he’s a dog, we do. SK: He’s not thinking of I right now? (laughter) (R: Not quite, he just exists.) You don’t want anything? (addresses dog.) R: But we get so caught up in our thinking, in our thoughts and in our emotions, we have no time to become free. The secret therefore is to slow the mind down. To keep the mind from thinking. In other words when your mind starts to think, catch yourself. Every time your mind starts to think, catch yourself. And you can ask yourself, “To whom do these thoughts come?” Or you can be the witness to your thoughts, or you can exchange thoughts for the mantra and say, “Who am I?” or what we discussed tonight. But by all means do something to keep yourself from thinking. SH: Does that include work thinking? The thinking that’s necessary to accomplish a task? R: Yes, due to the fact that your body will accomplish the task much better when you don’t think. You will know what to do. Your mind will become one pointed on the task and you will accomplish the task much better. We’re not thinking about the task. But yet something inside of you will know exactly what to do. But when a person thinks about a task, he thinks something like this, “What if it didn’t work? What if I make a mistake? What if this happens or that happens?” whereas if you don’t think something will take over and the task will become more beautiful for you. When you find yourself in the moment, centered in the moment. Where five minutes ago doesn’t exist and five minutes from now does not exist. You become centered in the now, then you can do the task correctly. SF: Is the witness of thoughts another thought? R: Yes, it’s another thought you have to get rid of in the end. It’s like the stick I was talking about. You make the fire and you throw everything in the fire to burn up. But the stick is the witness and when everything else burns up you throw in the stick too. SK: The stick you use to stir up the fire? R: To stir up the fire, yes. Everything has to go. (SH: The witness included?) The witness included. Because after all, who is the witness? Where did the witness come from? (SH: Just consciousness functioning on its own.) If it were consciousness there would be no thoughts about a witness. (SH: Either the witness isn’t a thought…) Well somebody’s got to think about being a witness. (SH: Then that isn’t witnessing.) Then who knows that you’re witnessing? (SH: No one.) Then you can’t be witnessing. (SH: There is no one to know?) There’s no more witnessing. (SH: There’s just witnessing per se?) The witnessing has to go. Because when there’s just witnessing, when you come out of it you say, “I witnessed.” (SH: No I, just witnessing?) Then that’s good, then the witnessing is really the Self. If you get to that point, you can call it by any name you like. You can call it witnessing, you can call it consciousness, you can call it absolute reality, it’s all the same. As long as there’s no I. SV: (Student asks about the imagination technique for the art that they practice and whether the growing silence they feel now will have an effect on this) R: Well look at it this way. Your body came to this earth to do a certain work and nothing can deviate from why it came here. So your body is going to do the work it came here to do. It has nothing to do with you. Therefore if you’re meant to be a good artist or a great actor, you’re going to accomplish this. But you will be silent about it. Silence is your real nature, your true nature. Yet you will perform better than you ever performed before. Everything will be better for you, but you are not the doer. You just got to get rid of the notion, I am the doer. That has to go, it has nothing to do with you. You are not the doer you are the Self. But yet your body is going to do whatever it came here to do. But your body is not you. So don’t worry about it, the right thing will happen. SF: It will manifest as more responsibility in creation? R: Yes, if that’s what it’s supposed to be. In other words whatever your body’s supposed to do on this earth, it’s going to accomplish without your help. SF: Robert I have a problem with this thing about thoughts, ultimately thoughts are the manifestation of the Self. I don’t know if I’m wrong but, if that’s the case the thoughts are non-dual per se. Duality comes only when there is somebody who believes they’re the thinker. So thoughts per se like in the case of the Jnani, he has thoughts but there is nobody to think about? I mean that’s the way I see it. R: The Self is self-contained and the Self really does not manifest thoughts to begin with. Thoughts are an illusion and like you say, the Jnani does have thoughts. But the thoughts of the Jnani can only goes this far and they stop. But they do not bring on any more karma, they do not disturb the Jnani at all. They have no value whatsoever to the Jnani. The thoughts come very lightly, very slowly, they come and they go, they come and they go. There is no permanent thought. But the thoughts do not come from the Self. The Self is the Self. They appear to come from the Self. Just like the world appears, the body appears, the thoughts appear. Therefore when you follow the I like we said in the beginning and we realize the thoughts and the body is attached to the I, when the I goes everything else goes. Thoughts go and everything goes. So don’t try to really stop your thoughts, get rid of the I that thinks the thoughts. See the difference? Whenever I tell you stop thinking, I mean catch the I that thinks. Find the source of the I that thinks. And the thoughts will stop by themselves. SF: And the difference is between those thoughts which have a claim in it and those thoughts which do not. R: Have a claim? (SF: Yeah, those claims that I’m doing something.) You have to realize, “I am not the doer.” And when those thoughts come, ask yourself, “To whom do they come?” And they’ll disappear. Is that what you mean? (SF: No, because you were talking about the thoughts of a Jnani that they had different thoughts and I would take it that those thoughts don’t have any claim of doing?) Oh I see what you mean, right. That’s right. (SF: And other thoughts have a claim of doing.) Yes. (SF: So there’s a difference between those which have a claim and those which don’t.) A Jnani has no attachment to his thoughts whatsoever. They mean nothing, they’re valueless. SV: The other question I have is, also prior to having any knowledge of this, I’m not thinking about myself but imagine a person who would like to pick up a pencil and sketches still life and the moment that he’s getting into relationships between a few objects in still life and fully concentrates on that in that silence and putting them together. In a certain way I always felt that person is there for a small extended period of time in his life and when he puts the pencil down, he falls back into regular consciousness. And the question was, is what you’re talking about is sort of like doing the still life except that there’s no pencil. And all the objects and everything you’re relating to, is as if you’re relating to still life, say? R: That’s a good way to see it, yes that’s a good analogy. There’s only consciousness and whatever appears in consciousness is an image. (SV: It starts getting more and more like a still life.) Like still life and when you realize who you are, you realize that you are the consciousness and not the still life. And the still life becomes an illusion. But it’s still there. But you’re aware that it’s not reality. You realize that everything is non reality. But it exists as an image in the Self. Like the images in the mirror. They appear to exist. But you can’t do anything with them, because if you try to grab them you grab the mirror not the image. Consciousness is the same way. When you try to grab anything, you find it’s illusory. It doesn’t exist. Only consciousness exists. So you ask, what about everything in the room, it appears to be real. That’s part of the dream, it’s part of the illusion. When you have a dream, you dream that everything exists, the world exists, the universe exists, people exist and you’re going through all kinds of periods, problems and delusions, but then you wake up and it’s gone. So when you wake up you laugh, for you realize it has all been a dream and only the Self exists, and you are that. SF: But when you say that consciousness exists that’s looking at it from a relative point of view. In itself consciousness doesn’t have a feeling of I exist. R: Of course, you’re right. But to explain it you have to use some words. (SF: Yeah.) There is no consciousness, there is no existence, there’s no Self. So let’s keep still then. Jorge? SG: Last week we were talking about karma and you said let the body do what it has to do. The body came here to do something so let it do what it has to do which is karma. But you say karma is absolute. For instance if you have a deep insight into your self in the moment and you see it, something completely about your self has changed. That changes your karma, that changes your illusion. Also… R: As long as the I exists, karma exists. The only time karma does not exist and there’s no longer any change, is when you get rid of the notion of I. (SG: I understand, but also if you have deep insight, whatever you see is erased, you’re gone, that changes the direction which you’re going.) But somebody has to be there to see. Who sees? (SG: Nobody, how will that something see, nobody sees.) There has to be an object and a subject. Somebody has to see. They both have to be, there’s no such thing as a red snake. For as long as you see it there has to be a subject and an object, when they both merge then that’s consciousness, (SG: Right.) When there’s no more seeing, there’s just being. (SG: That’s what happens after seeing, something to see, the insight.) There’s only being. But your body has nothing to do with that. The appearance of your body is going on doing what it’s supposed to do. (SG: It’ll still rather change the direction in which you’re going and becoming blissful.) R: That’s possible. (SG: Also what about grace. Grace itself. Grace itself can also change the course of this?) Grace you already have. When you’re aware of your grace, things can never be karmic. Grace transcends karma. (SG: People who are not aware of the grace they’re experiencing, that changes the direction of their mind also.) Your life is always changing anyway. But you have nothing to do with it, it’s due to karma. When you get rid of the notion of I, all change stops. You’re no longer aware of change. When you believe I exist, then you’re aware of change. So don’t worry about change. If you see yourself and you can remove your I-sense then everything will take care of itself. (SG: Get rid of what, the Isense?) Get rid of the I-sense, the sense of I. And everything will take care of itself. It makes life easier. Because you don’t have to make any changes yourself. (SG: I understand. (students talks about other people)) But don’t worry about people. Do what you have to do and everything will take care of itself. (SG: I understand.) We worry too much about people. SG: Well I’m not worried about people, I’m just making a point. Many people try to understand themselves but they’re too confused. (R: Who knows that?) So enjoying their life it never happens to them. They have to go through whatever comes. And you were talking about the absoluteness of karma. R: Umm, but who’s aware of those things? I am. Where do I come from? Get rid of the I and all that stuff will stop. Work on the I. (SG: I don’t disagree with that, but I’m just talking about the absoluteness of karma, disputing it.) On the relative plane, the absoluteness of karma is true. (laughter) (SG: On the relative plane. But let’s say, someone meets a great saint and the saint bestows a great blessing on you and your life is changed.) That’s because you’ve prepared yourself to meet the saint. (SG: I understand, but yet whatever happens, that’s not karma. There’s a very great saying that Rama Krishna would say, a touch of grace may change your course of life.) That’s true when it happens. But you have prepared yourself for that. SK: Some schools of thought believe that’s in your karma to get that grace. R: What you’re saying is true. But you have prepared yourself for that in one life or another. And now that’s your karma to get that grace. (SK: And now that would bring about another point, that there is no real free grace. It’s earned somewhere.) No, grace is free, the rest is an illusion. Karma is an illusion. Grace is self-realization. So stay yourself in the I and everything will take care of itself. So that’s an important point. Why do we want to get mixed up into so many different teachings? Just follow your own I and find its source and everything will come, all by itself. We’ve got to stop thinking so much. We think and we think and we think and we think. How does this work, how does this work, why does this work? Become simple. Do not be too intellectual. The stupider you look the better. SR: A month ago I transpired to read Ramana, some poems about the same subject and the idea of the archer and the arrow, I’m trying to understand this. (R: The archer and the arrow? Well what happens is this – Weren’t you talking about karma?) Well, I get a sense that every moment where the archer enters the goal, is that moment, he’s more sterile? Three short stanzas like: I am the arrow speeding along, unconcerned, certain. I am the archer by being true, certain. I am the target awaiting the return, certain. R: If it helps you it’s good. That’s a good poem, if it helps you personally, it’s good. (SR: He talks about every moment is creation?) Yes. That’s a good analogy. As long as it helps you, that’s good. But don’t complicate yourself. See the body is going to do whatever it has to do. But you are not your body so you have nothing to do with it. Therefore take no concern of anything and go back to the I and ask yourself, “Who experiences it? To whom does it come?” As an example: When I came back from India in 1985. I was going to retire in a log cabin in Maryville and spend the rest of my life by myself and grow my own food. But instead I started having a nerve problems. Now why did that happen? What have I got to do with it, I’ve got nothing to do with it. So the body is now in Los Angeles instead, having meetings. I have no desire to do anything like that, it just happened, but I’ve got nothing to do with it. My Self is always radiantly happy. Bliss, joyous, absolute reality and that’s really me and anything else that you see is your problem. (laughter) SF: Well I see my world. (silence) Robert: So here’s a meditation that you can practice on yourself. See these are all tools, use them, if you have to. They work and will cause changes. Make yourself comfortable. Close your eyes to remove obstructions and take ten deep breaths from your diaphragm. Inhale through your nose, expand your abdominals. Exhale through your nose and mouth and contract your abdominals, in slow motion, ten deep breaths, slowly and gently. This is to relax you. Now just breath normally. Now you begin to practice, vipassana meditation for a little bit, where you become aware of your breath, feel the sensations in your body. Just breath normally. Become aware of your breath and the sensations in your body. Ignore your thoughts. Whatever thoughts come to you, be the observer, the witness, ignore them… (tape ends abruptly)