Transcript:
Robert: (tape starts abruptly) …and who is responsible for this? So she says, “It’s my boss.” So the mother says, “I’ll fix him.” She calls the number and she says, “My daughter just told me she’s pregnant and you’re the father, what are you going to do about it?” So he says, “Well, if it’s a boy I’ll give him half the business. If it’s a girl I’ll give her two hundred thousand dollars.” So the mother thinks about this and she says, “If it’s a miscarriage will you give it another chance?” (students laugh) SH: That was a good deal. R: Jay laughs at anything. SK: He already laughed before you told the joke so it doesn’t mean that much. (laughter) R: Okay. Okay children. SK: Now he gets down to humor. (laughs) SH: Give us the word. R: There is one thing I can tell you for sure. That all is well and everything is unfolding as it should. I can tell you truly, nothing is wrong anywhere. Everything is happening just the way it is supposed to. If you think you’ve got a problem, that’s the mistake — thinking you’ve got a problem. If only you’d stop thinking. As soon as you stop thinking, everything will go right. (laughter) SH: Is it going right while you’re thinking? R: Yes, but you don’t know it. Some of us don’t think it is because some of us think, “I’ve got a problem,” or, “I’m involved in something I can’t handle,” or “Something is bigger than I am,” or, “something hurts me,” or “I feel angry,” or “I feel fear,” or “I feel something is wrong.” But I can assure you there is nothing wrong. Nothing has ever been wrong. Nothing is wrong now and nothing will ever be wrong. SH: Hallelujah! (laughs) Robert: All that you’ve to do, all you’ve got to do is watch yourself. As soon as your mind starts thinking past your nose, grab it — not your nose — but grab your thoughts. You can grab your nose too if you like. But grab your thoughts with your mind and put a stop to them any way you can, either by observing your thoughts, by practicing self-inquiry and asking, “To whom do they come?” Whatever you have to do, do not allow yourself to think. If your mind does not think you will be exceedingly happy. You will have unalloyed happiness. I can assure you. Total happiness if you stop yourself from thinking. I receive many phone calls. One of the calls that is most common is, “When will I experience self-realization?” (repeats) This is determined by the consciousness of the person. And I have a different answer for everybody because I take you where you’re at. This is why I may sound contradictory sometimes. If you ask me a personal question I try to answer you from where you’re coming from. Again, some people tell me, “Robert, why don’t you just speak the highest truth all the time?” And some people tell me, “Robert speak so that I can understand what you are talking about.” So that’s the dilemma. So I do whatever I have to do. I plan nothing. Everything is extemporaneous. I have no rehearsals. I don’t write anything down. I just say what comes out of me. So, when we have a phone call, “When am I going to become self-realized,” somebody tells me, “I have been practicing all week now, and nothing has happened.” (students laugh) Some man called me yesterday telling me he had been practicing for two weeks, he took a seminar and paid seven hundred dollars and he still is not self-realized. I get calls like this all the time. So it depends what you say this determines the answer I give you. But there is a standard answer. Think of the question. “When will I, I, I, become self-realized, selfrealized, self-realized, self-realized?” (student laugh) I usually say this, “Before I answer your question may I ask you a question? Please tell me what do you mean by I?” and “What do you mean by self-realization?” They usually keep silent. So I continue and I say, “Who do you think the I is, who wants to become self-realized?” You’re speaking about the personal I, and the personal I can never be self-realized. The personal I is finite. The finite can never know the infinite. That’s why the personal I can never become self-realized. And as long as you think you are the personal I, who needs to be self-realized, there never will be a time when you become self-realized. And then the word “self-realized,” what does that mean? It simply means your natural state. It is not something you become. It is something you are. You wish to experience your natural state. What you want to do therefore is to awaken to your natural state, what you are now, but you’ve covered it up with the personal I. As long as you keep talking about, “I am this,” and, “I am that,” and, “I need to be self-realized,” or, “I need to awaken,” or, “I need to do anything,” it will never happen. This is also true of your problems. When you think, “I have to solve a problem, I have to take responsibility,” you are referring to your personal I, and you will come up with relative ideas that will pull you further into problems. They will never be solved that way. Look back at your experience and you will see what I’m saying is true. When you try to use your personal I to solve a problem you may appear to solve it for a while. Then another one will pop up now and again, and you go through your life trying to solve problem, after problem, after problem. You have to understand and realize and see that intelligently. You have to look at that, intelligently and realize every time you speak about yourself, or any situation in the world, you are referring to your personal I. Now if you can bypass the personal I then you wouldn’t have the question. For if you realize you are not the personal I then who is left to become self-realized? No one. When the I is gotten out of the way you become omnipresence. You become I-am, not I am this or I am that, just I-am. Now your I-am is the I-am of the universe, consciousness, absolute awareness, I-am, is your real nature. You have to awaken to that. Do not talk about it. Do not try to convince somebody else, but to simply awaken yourself to the fact that you are I-am and you’ve always been I-am. If you can just reason that way, you wouldn’t have anything to say after that. Just say to yourself right now, “I-am.” As soon as you say, “I-am,” all of your problems, so-called are resolved, your life is resolved, everything is resolved, and you’re happy just by saying, “I-am.” Feel it. “I am.” Doesn’t it feel beautiful? There is nothing that comes after, “I-am.” “I-am” is it, there’s nothing else. And even if you have difficulty with this. Some people say, “I feel great as long as I am at satsang, but as soon as I get home the world grabs a hold of me and I get involved in problems. I get involved in worldly things.” Again you’re talking about your personal I. That’s what you’ve got to look at intelligently. When you tell me, “I get involved in the world,” who is the I? You will never say, “I am gets involved in the world,” because as soon as you say, “I-am” you feel good, don’t you? But when you say, “I get involved in the world,” you’re thinking of your body, your mind and your affairs. When you say, “I-am,” it all goes away and you become free. When you come to satsang, something happens. You’re not creating anything new, because there’s nothing to create. An awakening process takes place, just like when you’re dreaming and the dream is so interesting and nice and you awaken and you find yourself in this world. So it is when you begin to awaken in this world. You awaken to the fourth state of consciousness and you appear to be in this world to others, but you’re no longer of this world. The body may appear to be real to others, but you realize and you understand that you have no body. I can assure you, I can swear to you, I can promise you that I have no body. And yet you look at me and you say, “I see the body. I see you as a body.” So I ask you, “Who sees? Who sees the body?” “I do.” “Who am I? Who am I that sees the body?” Then there is silence. It is difficult for some of us to understand this, that I have no body. Now what appears to happen is when you’re in my company at satsang your body consciousness begins to dissolve, simply because I understand that I am not the body. When I use the words “in my company” or “me” or “I,” try to remember always that I am not referring to Robert. Robert is a horses ass. So when I say that you’re in my company, I am not referring to me, because I am nothing as Robert. But whenever I use the terms “I,” or “me,” or “my,” I always refer to consciousness, to omnipresence. So what I mean by this that you’re in my company, you are in the company of consciousness. There is no differentiation between my consciousness and your consciousness. I see you as consciousness, all I see is consciousness. And again, it is a little difficult to understand. How do I see consciousness? And people ask me, “Don’t you see the body?” Yes, I see the body, but I see it as consciousness. And I guess the only way to explain this, is if you take a gigantic screen and on this screen there are pictures shown on it, of bodies, of places, of mountains, of hills. The screen is aware of itself as the screen and knows that the objects are superimposed on itself. So it is constantly aware of it being the screen, and yet it knows there are pictures and objects superimposed on the screen. So it is, I realize myself as consciousness, but I also know that the whole world, the whole universe is also consciousness or the Self. Everything is the Self and I am that. That’s what it means. Therefore, from now on whenever you hear me declare my confession, that I am absolute consciousness, and I am pure reality, I am sat-chit-ananda, I am ultimate oneness, I am that I am, nirvana, emptiness, this is what I am referring to. All this is the Self, and I am That. And the Self is like a gigantic screen, where there are images superimposed on the screen. But I am aware of the consciousness and the images. I realize the images are false, but I see them. But my feelings, my thoughts, if there are any thoughts, my awareness is always on consciousness. Now what does this mean? It means I can be watching a movie, I can be watching TV, I can go to the opera, I can be involved in all kinds of things, but I am not involved in anything. I am free of it. Yet to others it appears as if I am involved. This is why I am no fun to be around. People can’t understand how I can stay home by myself. They want to take me some place, or be with me or feel sorry for me, they say, “Robert’s always by himself. He should get out more often.” Where would I go? (laughter) It really makes no difference where I am. Every once in a while Dana used to come and pick me up and take me to a movie. And I would make out I’m enjoying myself. And after the movie she likes to discuss it. And I don’t know what happened. I have no idea what’s going on. (laughter) I have no idea what’s going on. People tell me about their videos and about this person and about that and about actors and actresses and about Iraq and everything else. But what have I got to do with that? I realize it’s probably going on somewhere. But it’s very dim, it’s like a dream. I am totally aware of consciousness. Everything else is like a little dream, far away someplace. So I can be any place. As an example, I was picked up by three people when I came. Three people arrived at the house to take me to satsang. And while they were there, they saw people working on my carpet. My hot water heater leaked and the carpet was flooded. But all day I was watching the goings on sitting on a chair and I was totally happy. The happiness does not leave. People can be living or dying or working or whatever they are doing. How can I be unhappy? Nobody dies. Nothing is wrong. All is well. So how can I possibly be unhappy? It’s impossible. So, when we’re at satsang something happens to you to cause you to begin to feel this way also. Now people have asked me, “Why should I want to be this way? Because you do nothing, you’re good for nothing. You are no fun at a party and you are no fun to be around because there is nothing for me to do.” (laughter) So why should you want to be this way? The main reason is this: Don’t you want to be God? Don’t you want to be totally happy and blissful and be universal so-to-speak. Where you just feel and realize, “I am is the universe, I am is everything that exists.” I am that and I am at peace. I am totally happy, total joy. Everybody is running around with their problems trying to resolve them and solve them. And I just look, I just watch and I wonder how can you believe you’ve got a problem? Why do you think someone is trying to hurt you? Why do you believe someone is trying to take advantage of you? Why are you hurtable? And you don’t know why. The answer is simple. Because you are identifying with the personal I. That’s the only reason. Remember you cannot solve any problem by solving the problem itself. You’ve tried it and it doesn’t work. As I’ve said before, “When one problem is solved another one pops up somewhere else.” It never ends. But, when you annihilate the I, when the mind becomes quiescent and it rests in the heart, your natural state which is called the fourth state, after waking, dreaming and sleeping, ensues by itself. It comes by itself. Just like the sun that has been covered over by clouds. Only a fool would say, “The sun doesn’t exist because they can’t see it.” The clouds dissipate and the sun shines once again in all its glory and splendor. So it is with us. We’re covered with clouds of ignorance that make us believe, I’m hurtable, I’ve been raped, someone is trying to do something to me. I don’t mean raped literally, I mean in your mind. Someone is taking advantage of me, someone is trying to do this or do that to me. Those are all lies. You’re doing it to yourself because you’re thinking past your nose. You are allowing your thoughts to run rampant with you. Your thoughts are taking you over continuously and leading you astray. You are not putting a stop to this you are allowing it to happen. Is it any wonder that you feel anger, frustration, out of sort? Because you will not put a stop to these thoughts when they begin. This is also true with thoughts of dying, or sickness, or whatever. There is no such thing. Nothing exists but Iam. And you should practice that form of meditation. When you inhale you say, “I.” You exhale you say, “am.” If you have to meditate, meditate on that with your breathing. The day will come when you awaken, and you will not have to do anything. But in the meanwhile, you do the best you can. But as you are doing the best you can, realize that consciousness is what you are, and consciousness loves you for you are its own. It will never leave you nor forsake you. If you can’t do anything else surrender to consciousness. What I mean about surrender, surrender your ego, your problems, your emotions, your fears, your frustrations, your hurts, your anger. Give it all up. Say, “Take it consciousness.” If that’s too abstract to you, give it all to me. I will take it and chew it up for you and spit it out. So when you wake up in the morning and feel out of sorts, you feel angry or frustrated say, “Okay Robert, take this from me. I’m giving it to you.” And I’m happy to take it off your shoulders so that you can carry a lighter load. If that is what you have to do, do that. But by all means do not get carried away with your emotions. Stop in the middle and watch. Watch your emotions ruling you. Watch your fears controlling you. And watch your anger popping up. Do not try to stop it, just watch, observe, look intelligently and realize who it is that is getting angry or frustrated, It’s not you. It is not even your ego, because there is no ego. It’s not your body, because there is no body. It’s not your mind, because there is no mind. Therefore, what is making you angry? Nothing. It is like the story I tell of the Zen monk who is in his quarters and he’d get angry every now and again. He would start arguments with his fellow monks, always looking for something wrong, always complaining, whining, always telling people his troubles and he’d get real angry. So this fellow monk said, “Why don’t you go see the Roshi, the head of the monks and tell him to help you.” So he said, “Okay,” and the Roshi lived about two miles down the road. So he went down there and he explained his position with the Roshi. So the Roshi said, “Okay, so here’s what I’ll do, “Take my staff and hold onto it. Now whenever you get angry my staff will remind you to come to me and I will get rid of your anger for you.” So he went back to his quarters and that night he really got angry at some other monks. So he looked at the staff, and remembered the Roshi, so he started to run to the Roshi. And he finally got there, he was jogging all the way. So the Roshi said, “What’s wrong?” And he said, “I got angry.” The roshi said, “Show me your anger.” Well in the jogging the anger went away. He had nothing to show him, and he said, “I am not angry right now.” The Roshi said, “Go back to your quarters, and when you get angry again come and tell me about it.” The next day he got angry again. He ran to the Roshi and the same thing happened, in his running to the Roshi his anger disappeared. And the Roshi said, “Where is your anger?” And he said, “It’s gone now.” This went on about twenty-five times. Finally the last time, the Roshi said, “Okay, I’ll tell you what you do now. When you get back to your quarters take my staff I gave you and when you get angry beat the living hell out of your anger with my staff.” And this was so funny to the monk that he became realized, he became enlightened. Because he realized he would take the staff and beat himself, and his real Self could never get angry. But it was his body that appeared to be angry. And just that running back and forth twenty-five times and the answer the Roshi gave him made him open his eyes and become enlightened. So it is with us. Do not look at your problem as a problem. Look at it as a no-thing. It doesn’t exist. Again, if your ego does not exist, if your body does not exist, if your mind does not exist, how can you be angry? Where would it come from? Who gave it birth? And this is true of every other problem you believe you’ve got. Just by watching it like I just pointed out, it will disappear and you will awaken to your true Self. Now we’ll go into questions, feel free to ask anything you like. Do not be embarrassed. Ask a question about what we discussed or about what is going on in your life, for we’re all one big happy family, so do not feel embarrassed to ask anything. Who’s first? (long silence) R: Well, I’ll talk about something else. I was talking about all the phone calls I get in the beginning. People are still asking me, “What do you think about this swami? What do you think about this person? What’s your opinion about this person and that person? Why shouldn’t I go to see other teachers as well?” And I really do not know what to say. You have to do what your heart tells you to do. But I can tell you, the more people you see, the more confused you’ll become. Now I don’t care if you never come back here again, because I am not looking for anything. But if you do find a teacher that you seem to have an affinity with, you should stick around that teacher for a while. Because if you run from teacher to teacher, from meeting to meeting you are going to become totally confused. Every teacher has their place. And you will be attracted to the person you have to be with for the time being. It all depends where your consciousness is. Again I will discuss something that a couple of people have asked me to discuss. I’ve done this before. But it is good to bring it up again and again every once in a while. There are three types of people who go on a spiritual path. One type is called the seeker, another is called a disciple, and the third is called a devotee. The seekers are the worst ones because they never stop seeking. While they are in class they are thinking about who they are going to see tomorrow. They never stop. They run around from pillar to post, they go to India to seek a teacher, they go to Hawaii to see another teacher, they go to St. Louis when they hear about another teacher. And they are seekers, now this is good to an extent, because they are better off than the people who do nothing and think they’re human. But you can be a seeker for a thousand lifetimes and it will never end. If you are a seeker, that is really sincere and in your heart you truly wish to awaken, the time will come when you stop being a seeker and become a disciple. Now a disciple finds a teacher and tries to learn all they can from that teacher. But yet they still are not sure, they still have doubts. They still are interested in me, me, me, “What am I getting out of this? What’s in it for me?” And once in a while they will go to other teachers also. But they are still staying around one particular teacher and they become a disciple of that teacher but they are not that close. For if they hear about another teacher coming to town, they go see that teacher also. And of course there is confusion in their consciousness. But they are getting closer. If a disciple is really sincere in their heart, and they really have love and compassion and goodness and kind feelings towards all, they will eventually become a devotee. Now a devotee becomes the consciousness of the teacher. A devotee forgets all about him or herself. They can be in class, everyone is going wild, throwing spitballs at each other, but the devotee sees nothing but the teacher. The devotee is oblivious unto everything that is going on in the class. But only has love and good feelings to all. And is interested in the teachers welfare and ultimately becomes enlightened. So it is devotees who awaken faster than anybody else. Think to yourself, in what category are you? To be quite truthful with you, I would rather have five devotees around me, than ten thousand people who are seekers. But now we’ll go back to questions. Feel free to make comments. If you think I’m a dirty dog, just say so. (Long silence) SN: Robert, it sounded like you were describing devotees as the bhaktas? Where does that leave the Jnanis? R: Bhaktas and devotees and Jnanis are the same. A real Jnani is a devotee of the Self, and the Self is everywhere. So they are really a bhakta and they are a Jnani. They are both the same. There is no differentiation really. (SN: So you’re saying actually the Jnani has a lot of love.) Yes, they are supposed to, or they wouldn’t be a Jnani. (SN: Well I mean an aspiring?) They should be full of love and kindness and joy and peace towards everything. (SN: So really it is not too useful making that distinction?) Who makes the distinction? The ajnani. The person who is not a bhakta and is not a Jnani, makes the distinction. But if a devotee even knows about these things, then they are aspiring for Jnana, they are aspiring for bhakti, and they ultimately reach their goal because they learn to keep quiet. Not to talk too much. Not to think too much. Not to judge at all. But just to be quiet and watch. And they have got their eyes fixed on the teacher, like a lion has its eyes fixed on a rabbit. It sees nothing but the rabbit. Everything may be going on all around the lion, but it only sees the rabbit, until it catches its prey. So a real devotee identifies totally with the teacher and finally becomes like the teacher. SG: Robert, can all of these phases be passed through in one lifetime? R: Yes, definitely. They can all be passed through instantaneously. Like right now, this moment. You just have to wake up. There is no time. Time is an illusion. SK: Robert, there are distinctions often made between a gradual path and instantaneous enlightenment, I find that throughout spiritual teachers, spiritual literature. And alot of this stuff about passing through these stages. I can only talk about myself I can’t relate to it. I don’t feel bad about it or good or anything but it just doesn’t make any sense to me. (R: What can’t you relate to?) Well just the idea that you pass through one stage to the next stage to the next stage. R: This is for the ajnani. (SK: Right.) This is for the person who is striving. And of course in truth there is nothing to pass through. But it appears that people need to understand these things so they can search in themselves and be able to see where they’re coming from. And this will help them tremendously. Perhaps you don’t need it. But others do. SK: I think about the time when Ramana Maharshi went down to Padi Mooni and said something to Ramana about… I think Ramana said to them, “You are the Self, wake up!” or something and he said, “Don’t they have to go through all these stages?” And Ramana said, “Well maybe but I don’t know anything else.” (R: That’s right.) Yeah. You know, and I remember there were like two schools of thought at the ashram, you know. People who believed there were gradual changes you had to go through and then there were people who believed in instantaneous enlightenment. (tape break as the same student continues.) …it’s not really the same as what you were talking about in your state, which is really, I wouldn’t call happiness in a sense because it seems so far above the happiness that is the opposite to sadness. (R: You’re right.) Sadness could even come into that state you are in and it would only be some other thing that was passing through, in a sense wouldn’t it? (R: You’re right.) No identification. R: As an example, I can cry at a funeral, but I realize who’s crying. I can have all kinds of sadness if I want to, but I am not really sad. You hit it right when you said that. It appears to be like that. (SK: Like the state of non-abiding mind, that’s really the closest thing to it, isn’t it?) You are right, that’s true. I am looking for words to describe this. But there is always total happiness. But it’s not human happiness. There are no things involved. For most people to be happy there has to be a person, place or thing involved in their happiness. But in true happiness there are no things involved to make you happy. It’s the natural state. And you abide in that state forever. SK: From the standpoint of practice, I’ve noticed that no matter what state comes up, am I willing to ask myself, “Can I let this go?” You know what I mean. Do I feel stuck in it or is it that important to me that I stay in a sort of emotional state? And the real answer to that is that there is nothing you can do anyway. As it comes then it goes and it is noticed to be that. R: And yet act as if there is something you can do, even though there is nothing you can do. Act as if there is something you can do. As an example, If you were passing a starving man on the road, don’t say there is nothing you can do and leave him alone. Give him a piece of bread. Act as if there is something you can do. (SK: But say in regard to the mind arising, emotions arising, perceptions arising there is nothing you can do.) Except watch, just watch, just observe and watch. (SK: And even that, if you turn it into something you think you’re doing, it is not what you are talking about.) Yes. (SK: In like Vipassana retreats for example you try to cultivate the mind that watches, but that couldn’t be it. No it’s not, it’s beyond that. But you’re doing that in the beginning as a procedure, a process, because that’s where you’re at, at the time, that’s what you need to do, so you can’t say that’s wrong or right. It’s just where you’re at, now. Another thing to consider is this: if I were here as a visitor and having one class with you, and you never see me again. I would expound the highest truth and take off. And you would say how great that is. But when I see you twice a week or more, I begin to know you quite well and everything I say is to help you grow because that is what needs to be said to you at that time, since I’m going to be with you. The people who were with Ramana as devotees, he didn’t expound absolute truth to them all the time. He would talk to them like a normal person. He would inquire about their welfare, about their health, about their problems, and would give them practical advice. He wouldn’t say, “Nothing matters because nothing exists.” (laughter) They know that already but they can’t help it they have got the problems. So he would talk to them in a practical manner. SG: Last night, Robert, my partner, who is pregnant… (R: Your partner is pregnant? Who is responsible?) (laughter) I don’t know. (laughter) The child’s coming in July, at least that’s what we think. Last night, being with a pregnant woman is a great practice of not taking anything personal. Her mood changes within five minutes, and last night though, she got really anxious about taking care of the child’s insurance, and where’s the money going to come from. Working at the Bodhi tree doesn’t exactly bring in much money, and I remember getting caught up in the emotions. While I was doing that I was asking, “Who’s getting caught up in the emotions?” but yet this body and emotions are getting caught up and it seems there is a part that just kind of watches it and there’s a part that’s kind – I don’t know if it’s a way of retreating or not wanting to look at what she’s dragging me into. R: Since you’re living with her, help her to the best of your ability. But be impersonal. Do not become attached to it. Practice non-attachment. Yet help her all you can. Be kind, gentle and do the best you can. (SG: It seemed like the most loving thing to do at the time would be to get insurance to help her fears.) Well, if that’s what you feel like doing, but just by being kind to her will help. Being gentle and peaceful and realize what she’s going through. That alone will take care of it. But as far as you’re concerned, realize where all this is coming from. She is involved in the personal I, and she’s worried about her body and her affairs. Maybe you can help her in that way by telling her not to worry because God loves her and will take care of her and will watch her. And everything will turn out all right. That kind of advice will be helpful. (SG: A lot of the time she doesn’t take that too well.) Then just keep silent, and say it to yourself. But If you can become calm and peaceful something within you will tell you what to do. You will be advised by the powers that be. The more calm you can make yourself, the more peaceful you can make yourself, the more you can control your mind, the greater the answer will be. And you will know what to do and you’ll do it for the good of all concerned. SA: Robert, I have something to say. I don’t know whether it’s a question though. (R: Okay.) I don’t know if it’s a statement either, but it seems to me sometimes that this is all very intellectual in spite of what you say. There’s a lot of talking about the process, the asking about the I and all that kind of thing, and of course I’ve done a lot of reading like everybody else, and although I’m very critical of Gurdjieff, I was very interested in the idea of the dancing, of the work that was done. I mean physical work. As we know, there’s dancing in other systems. And sometimes I feel that it’s almost more important to give attention to the body as it moves through life and as it moves through the day in certain ways, and that this is this unconscious knowledge that we’re looking for, the approach to what we’re looking for. That the body itself undergoes experiences that enlighten us, and this is in a different realm than our intellectual speculations. I know for example that when I dance, there’s a place in Santa Monica called Dance Home, where sometimes at night you have fifty people dancing alone by themselves in a dark room with colored lights. For me this is a spiritual experience because there seems to be almost an integration of body-mind-spirit. R: Of course, the average person cannot sit home alone and think because they go crazy. So when you dance and when you become active, it keeps you from going crazy, from thinking. So what you’re saying is true as far as that’s concerned. But that’s on a relative plane and you have to remember, what body are you talking about? The body is transient, and you’re not the same body you were twenty-five years ago. You’re not the same body you were when you were five years old. You’re a completely different body, so what body are you referring to? And pretty soon your body will become old and crippled and whatever. So will you be referring to that body? That cannot dance any longer, that has no energy, that has no power, that has to sit in bed all day, when you get to be ninety years old and so forth? So what body are you referring to? Why keep your mind on your body when you can keep your mind on the Self that never changes. That is imperishable. That was never born and can never die. That is permanent and that’s your real nature. If you identify with that you will find eternal happiness and eternal peace. But, if you identify with the body like you’re doing, it will grow old and what will you do then? It will be time to die and you will be disappointed. (SA: I don’t see that this is identification with the body. If anything it’s a removal from the body.) You’re working with the body, so you have to think about your dance steps and you have to think about your dancing and having fun. It’s all body work. SK: Isn’t it also that one shouldn’t mistaken the release of endorphins in the brain to be a spiritual experience? R: That’s true of course not. Endorphins, the brain have nothing to do with the Self. The Self is the Self. It’s self-contained, it’s happy, it’s peaceful and it’s knowledge. Everything else is transitory, it comes and goes. The free choice we have is, with whom shall we identify? With the body or the Self? And that’s your choice. If you choose the body then you come back, life after life, after life, with other bodies, because if you identify with the body, there is not only one body, there are many bodies. It never ends. You are creating your own body, lifetime after lifetime until the time comes when you become disgusted with the body and then true spirituality begins. Another example: Say you love to go dancing, and you’re coming home one day from the dance and you cross the street and a truck hits you and they have to amputate your legs. What do you think of that body? No legs and you can’t dance. Now you have to stay in bed and you’re only thinking of when you used to dance. You’ve wasted your time. SA: Yes, but couldn’t everything you’ve said about the body be applied to the mind also, because the mind, as you have said yourself, is just a tool to move beyond the mind. (R: Yes.) So, if that can be said of the mind and if these attitudes can be had towards the mind they can also be had towards the body-mind because they’re both illusory. R: Of course. But you’re using the body to realize that you’re not the body. You’re not using it to get further involved in relative things. You use the mind and your body to get rid of the mind and the body, not to get more involved. That’s why you watch yourself, and you see yourself, and you ask yourself, “Who loves to dance? Who loves to do all these things? I do. Who is this I?” And we’re talking about your personal I again. Everything is attached to the personal I. When you remove that idea that there’s a personal I, true happiness automatically ensues and then there’s no question about it. Just like with me. I do not have to consider if dancing is more fun than being the Self. There is no comparison. I don’t know what to say? Dancing is for a time only. Just like you’re an artist and a writer. That’s great, but it’s for a time only. The time will come when you won’t be able to do this anymore. You will be too old. Then what? You’ll look back and you’ll say, “Ah, I used to be an artist, I used to be a great artist and I used to be a great writer, I used to be a great dancer, but look at me now, I’m nothing.” And you’ll commit suicide perhaps, because you cannot do any more what you used to do. For you’ve been totally involved in the body consciousness. That’s why I say find release now, find freedom now, so you don’t have to go through this again and again and again. SA: Robert, how does all of this stack up with your ideas about pursuing the life that is wonderful as it is, and being involved in all activities with detachment? R: You have no choice. The activities that you’re involved in you were meant to be involved in them. And your mind will do what it has to do to make you further involved. The freedom you have got is simply to question, “Who am I? What is the source of I?” And as you question, your involvement in life, so-to-speak, will become less and less, and you will become happier and happier. But if you do not question, then you will get deeper involved and deeper involved and deeper involved, and pretty soon you’ll think that’s your life. But again as I said you will grow older and older and older and then you will just drop dead one day. And you will pick up another body and repeat the whole thing over again. There is no end to it. Until you give up that concept. SG: Robert, I have a question about two things that were already asked. One is, as you said in the beginning, was when we come to satsang we tend to pick up the feeling that’s present, and at the same time when we’re in the company of someone that’s having intense emotions we become that. Also there was the question of gradual awakening or sudden awakening. My question is this, if we are subject to these types of emotions, is it necessary for us to work on ourselves and gradually not identify with this, or is it something that just happens suddenly, in other words do we not be upset at ourselves for identifying with emotions and realize it happens all of a sudden or should we work on ourselves? R: Okay, to work on yourself is simply to know I am not the body or these emotions. And as you identify with your source everything will take care of itself. You do not work on the emotions because they will pop up somewhere else as I’ve said before. But if you work on the source of your emotions, and realize that in reality there are no emotions to begin with because there is only the Self. And the more you awaken to that fact, that the Self alone exists and everything else is false, then you will begin to mellow out. (S: So it is gradual?) It depends, no. As you keep working on yourself, you can awaken instantaneously and be free of it, or it can be gradual. It is up to you. It depends what you put into it. Everybody is different. SF: Isn’t there always a preliminary growth before the Jnani takes care of all these things? R: For some people. Some people just wake up. When you have a dream is there a preliminary before you wake up? Or do you just wake up? Everybody just wakes up. So it is with this. As you keep abiding in the Self one day you will just awaken and be done with it and you will be free. So don’t think of preliminaries. Focus on the Self and everything will take care of itself. SN: If we don’t see progress within ourselves, but we continually see ourselves get upset with the situations around us, we shouldn’t let that bother us? R: Keep observing, keep watching, and keep focusing on the Self, and there will be nobody to ask who is bothered or who is not bothered by it. You only ask a question like that when your attention is more on the bothering than it is on the Self. But if you change your attention and you put all your energy on the Self, then you will see what happens. (S: The question is, is that gradual?) For some people. It depends how much time you give to it. SN: We can’t just turn our emotions off. Because I can relate to experiences I’m having at work, and sometimes I go to the office there is such an intensity there and people are snapping at each other, I get caught up in it. Of course I become aware, usually after the fact and then I say to myself, “Well is there something that I’m aware of?” and gradually by abiding in myself gradually not identifying with it or is it something that someday I’ll suddenly awaken? R: That’s why I say, in the morning, when you first open your eyes, that’s the time to work on yourself. And ask yourself, “Who am I? How did I get here?” And reconcile yourself with your Self. If you do that first thing upon waking up, then the whole day will be good, and you won’t have those problems. Just don’t get up and run out to work. Get up an hour early if you have to. And see yourself for what you are and realize the truth. Focus on the Self. Ask yourself, “Who am I?” and wait. Think of your source, concentrate on the source of I-am, or just say to yourself, “I-am, I-am,” and then go to work. And you’ll see changes, miraculous changes. SN: Well what I’m saying is when I’m in the company of other people, not when I’m alone. When I’m in the company of other people, I tend not to be in control except I get caught up in whatever they’re caught up in. R: Well that’s later, but if you are in the company of your Self and you do the work on yourself. You will build up a power… (SN: Right.) …that you will carry with yourself all day long. And that won’t happen. (SN: The whole thing of losing your centre losing that sense of – you get lost.) That’s why before you go to sleep and when you wake up, that is the time to work on yourself. If you do it correctly, it will take over your life. And all will go well with you. SF: Robert, I’m still confused about this abiding in the Self and you wake up. Abidance in the Self, I don’t think it implies knowing or being already the Self and then arriving there. (R: Umm.) Rather than a gesture for the Self, such as deep self-inquiry, could mean that maybe? Or it may lead to that, arriving in the Self. That’s natural arriving in the Self. R: Abiding in the Self is knowing I-am, is being I-am. So when you say, “I-am,” you are abiding in the Self. (SF: Thank you.) SN: Now, to follow it to its source, take for instance if you find the I by self-inquiry, abide in that, seems to me to be in that state is kind of stateless. Like non-existence. So to follow it what do you mean by follow it? Because it already seems like no-existence? R: Don’t worry about being non-existent. Simply observe the I and watch it going into the heart. (SN: So it is not so much a following, it is just that it happens of itself?) It happens of itself. SF: So Robert when I contemplate, “I am,” it means right then I am abiding in the Self? R: Yes it does, that’s the same thing. (SF: When I say, “I-am,” is this empirical person right I’m using my mind and I’m still in duality? But in this contemplation of I-am does duality exist or it doesn’t?) Yes, You’re using your mind. When you’re saying, “I am, I am,” you are transcending the personal I and you are opening yourself up to your own reality. (SF: So abidance in Self is taking place then?) Yes, it is taking place right then and there. (SF: Thank you.) SK: Robert, it’s because we have the concept we are not the Self that we miss the fact that we are abiding in the Self all the time, and that’s what’s left out in this discussion. As Ramana said, we only have the doubt we are not the Self, but the truth is we have always been that. (R: Exactly.) So we only have to lose something we don’t even really have. R: That’s why we go through all these troubles and play all these games, until we realize, “I am the Self.” Then that’s it. (SK: And that’s all you’ve ever been. The other is just a false mind.) But if we can’t see that we have to play all these games I guess, its fun! SG: Robert, if we don’t know the Self and we are saying, “I-am,” what is to keep that from becoming a parrot-like repetition? R: It doesn’t become a parrot-like repetition if you do it with your breath. If you inhale, say. “I.” When you exhale, say, “am.” “I am.” A subtle change of energy takes place within yourself, and you’ll find you will become more peaceful, more calm, and pretty soon you will lose all identification with your body-mind and you will remain as I am. It helps. Try it. SG: As you were saying earlier, you were also talking about identifying with the Self as identifying with the source. In my state of ignorance doing something as simple as just saying, “I am,” and coordinating with the breath, is the best I can do to identify with the way you’re talking about? R: Well that’s one way to do it, do that. But then you should also ask yourself, “Who thinks they are ignorant? Who believes they’re not the Self? I do. Who Am I?” And you go right back to it again. Use the method that helps you the most. For some people, just saying, “I am” does the trick. Other people have to work with, “Who am I?” continuously. Self-inquiry is the fastest way to wake up. SF: When contemplating “I-am” it’s self-inquiry itself, Robert? R: Yes it is. Of course it is, definitely. SF: And it is just a question of remembrance what Richard was saying actually? (R: Yes.) Ramana would say “we are the Self but we don’t remember, so we need to work on it.” And when we use self-inquiry which of course takes several forms, which you have explained thoroughly and particularly, I love this much, “I am” because I can see some movement. I do not know how to explain it. A movement of energy that’s valid when I contemplate I-am, so I thank you for it, thank you very very much. R: Umm. I’m glad it’s working for you, but be careful about these things. Don’t be like the Santa Cruz lady who called me. She’s a doctor and she was operating in the emergency room. And she stopped everything and called me and said, “Should I concentrate on I-am while I’m operating or should I just forget about I-am for now?” I wonder what happened to the patient? (students laugh) SN: Robert, when we do self-inquiry, actually that is the beginning step to find the I. When we develop a sense of abiding in the I, there’s not too much need of self-inquiry because we go straight to the abiding. R: Self-inquiry has no beginning. If you do “Who Am I?” it’s very powerful. It sounds simple but it’s very very powerful. All you’ve got to say is, “Who Am I?” take a pause, say it again, “Who Am I?” Never answer. But keep saying, “Who Am I? Who Am I?” Eventually, something will happen. SN: I’m saying if you develop a sense of self-abidance you can almost watch yourself go in and out of those states, you can almost watch yourself, “Now I’m identifying with the ego” and what I’m saying is, self-inquiry is to get you to that state but once you have a feel for that, you go directly to that. R: If you’re abiding in the Self, there is no ego to watch, because there is only the Self. You watch the ego with the mind, not with the Self. So if you abide with the Self there is nothing else. You are finished. You’re cooked. Everything else is of the mind. So when I say “abide in the Self” I mean forget everything and be your Self. There is nothing else to know at that point. Just be your Self. SF: Robert, I was unable to understand the use of the breath in connection with I-am. (R: You are unable to understand?) Yes, how do you use it? R: You inhale, you say, “I,” you exhale, you say, “am,” with your breath, when you inhale, exhale. And you will notice after a while your breathing begins to slow down and the periods between I-am is becoming longer and longer. And pretty soon you lose body consciousness and you get lost in I-am itself. And you will become consciousness, I-am. SG: Robert, you say about the breath slowing down, depends on meditation, it happens frequently now that I seem to be aware of the body and the heart seems to stop, and I am aware of not breathing. Then I get shoved right back into the body. R: That’s all of the mind, it all comes out of the mind. Go beyond all that stuff. Do not pay attention to that. Inquire, “To whom does that come?” and go beyond it. And abide in the Self. See we shouldn’t get lost too much in procedures and methods. Remember, in reality procedures and methods do not exist. Only the Self exists. So use the methods and procedures with a grain of salt. Try to stay at the source of I and be free. I notice the more we talk about it, the more we talk about procedures, you can get lost in procedures. Be still and know that I am is God. So by keeping the mind still you become God faster. So don’t contemplate procedures. Do the procedures if you have to, but go beyond it fast. Leave it behind and abide in the I-am. SK: Robert I think it was Nisargadatta who said that the Sage gives a description of reality, not a prescription. He doesn’t give you something to do. You go to a doctor for that. He tells you where it’s at or how it is and it’s for your own recognition when you see it. Because reality is always the same and when you see it, it’s when you see it. R: It is interesting to note, what you are saying is true, but it’s interesting to note that all these words of Nisargadatta and Ramana were given to new students every time they came. And then they go away. And then new ones would come and they would ask the same questions and he would give the same answers. And that is how all the books were written. But what did he do with his direct disciples and the devotees? He was human to them. Do you know what I’m saying? (SK: Yeah. Well I can only take your word in a way and there was no way of knowing, but it makes total sense.) Sure, this is why as I said before if I were a guest here for one time I would fill you with the absolute, totally and completely. Because you’re not going to see me for another couple of years. But when I have to see you all of the time you’re telling me about your practice and what’s going on, and we have to have a dialogue, which is normal. Nothing wrong with that. SG: We could still have a guest appearance. (students laugh) We could have a truth hour. R: I do that every time I see you. What kind of truth are you looking for? Just by being here you’ve got it. SF: Robert, from what I’ve been reading about Ramana, well actually there was not much of self-inquiry but much of devotion. (R: Exactly.) Mainly devotion to the body or to the presence of the Master. (R: Yes, that’s true.) And they were getting more out of it then what he would be teaching? R: You’re right. This is why I tell you every once in a while the story about the devotee who used to pull his (Ramana’s) fan. He used to stand by Ramana and pull his fan for forty years. Then one day he dropped dead. And Ramana looked at him and told the devotees, “He’s all cooked. He is not coming back again.” (SF: Also the provision of descriptions they give about Ramana what was his effect on them. It seems that they were all contemplating him tremendously.) Yes, you’re right. (SF: I think that’s a quality of the way to a Jnani?) R: You’re right. That’s why it’s a combination of bhakta and Jnana.) (SF: The contemplation of the Master in his physical form, standing near him, being close to him.) That’s very true. (SF: I think that’s all part of the scene of the Jnani and his disciples or devotees.) You’re right. SV: God, Guru, Self. (R: What’s that?) God, guru, Self? R: God, guru, Self is right. This is why I said before, I don’t know if you were here, Horat. I said, I would rather have five devotees with me than five thousand lookers and seekers and searchers and disciples because the five devotees would become realized in this life. The rest are only searching, looking. So you’re right, absolutely. It’s hard for a Westerner to understand that, because a Westerner’s ego is very very big no matter what you say. (long silence) Om, shanti, shanti, shanti, om, shanti. Silence is the greatest teacher. Remember to love yourself, to bow to yourself, to pray to yourself, to worship yourself because God dwells in you as you. I love you. Peace. (tape ends)