Transcript:
Robert: What’s the name of our group? Who knows? What is the answer to it? SL: The nobody’s? Robert: If somebody asked what group do you attend what do you say? SN: The Jnana Marga Society. Robert: That’s right. That is what we call ourselves and if they ask you, “what does it teach? Nothing.” It’s a hard job answering an ordinary person because what do we teach? Nothing. You know there are two different schools of Advaita Vedantists. And I think I’ll talk about that today. One school teaches that consciousness becomes modified as the world. This has not been my experience. SN: Can you explain that? R: Yes. (laughs) People ask me also, (I’ll get back to you). They ask me does all this come to you when you talk? Did it take a few years to get to the place where you are at? Where does all this information come from? Through spirits? How did you acquire this? I had to think about that myself also. But really the best I can do is say that everything happened all at once. There were no periods of time. When I was 14 years old and I got absorbed into reality everything came then and there and that’s it. No thing has ever been added on. Isn’t that interesting? There is no new knowledge to learn. So back to the question. Does consciousness modify itself into the world? That has not been my experience. But there are Advaita Vedantists that believe that. That you have to have consciousness to have the world. But it’s my experience that there is no world to begin with. We start from there. There never was a world or a universe. There will never be a universe or a world. There is only consciousness. That has been my experience. Consciousness does not modify itself into anything. Of course those people who believe that the world is sort of real can say that they have to be consciousness first and then you have the universe. But I will insist on saying that the universe is non-existent. It’s like an optical illusion. It appears to be real but there is no substance to it. It has no causation, no ego. This of course means that everything connected with the universe does not exist. God, planets, reincarnation, karma, people, places and things are non-existent. And when I use the term consciousness we cannot even understand that. For if we can explain it, it doesn’t exist. How do we know there is something? It seems to me that when we learn to sit in the silence and the mind becomes quiescent, calm, something happens. Something that is indescribable, ineffable. Something wonderful happens. We become ultimate oneness. We seem to sort of melt into something. The something has no name. So we give it a name. We call it consciousness or God or nirvana or emptiness, pure intelligence, absolute reality, infinite wisdom. We make up these names and yet if we’ve never experienced that how can we possibly know what those names mean. Isn’t it better if we shut up and say nothing. Yet we can’t do that for we live in a world of talkers. People have to talk so-it-seems and some people really talk. And the more you talk the less you have to say. What’s the answer? There is no answer. There never was an answer, therefore stop looking for an answer. There is no solution, stop looking for a solution. There is nowhere to go, stop thinking you have to go some place. There is nothing to do, stop thinking you have to do something. You simply have to be your Self. How do you arrive at the Self? Well here is another interesting way of getting to that. And if you get up in the morning if you feel a little depressed or out of sorts, if you do this you will start to laugh at yourself and you will feel better. It will make you happy all day. And here’s what you do. As soon as you get up say to yourself, “I am not my arms, I am not my legs, I am not my torso, I am not my head, I am not my bones, I am not my blood, I am not my organs of reproduction, I am not my respiration, I am none of these things. For most of these things are functioning without my knowledge. My heart beats, I didn’t tell it to beat. I have to go to the bathroom, I didn’t give my body permission to go to the bathroom. The body wants to eat it gets hungry. I never told my body to be hungry. It appears as if I have nothing to do with my body at all.” You go further. You say to yourself, “How about the world? I am not the world. The world didn’t exist a few moments ago when I was asleep. Now that I am awake I think about the body, the world, God, work, food, bathroom. All these things happen when I wake up. Well if I’m not those things, who am I”? Who is the I that is experiencing all this? I don’t know.” Be honest with yourself. Don’t say, “Oh the I is consciousness.” That’s the worst thing you can ever do. Is to memorize certain words or phraseologies and use them at your own time. When you ask the question, “Then who is experiencing the body? Who is experiencing the world?” Be honest with yourself and say, “I don’t know? It’s a mystery. Well then to whom is it a mystery too. To me. It therefore seems that if everything is a mystery to me. Me, me, me. If I got rid of the me, there would be no mystery. Now how do I get rid of the me. Who is the me? The me is another word for I. I believe that everything is a mystery. I have nothing to do with my body or the world.” So you get back to I. “Who is this I? I don’t know it’s a mystery. There is the mystery again.” So I’ll ask again, “For whom is the mystery for? For me. Who am I? I don’t know it’s a mystery. For whom is the mystery for?” As you keep talking to yourself this way something wonderful is going to happen. Your question will begin to slow down and you will feel yourself becoming happy. You may even start laughing at yourself. And your mind will become quieter and quieter and quieter. You will begin to feel enormous joy. Just by doing that technique, without coming to any conclusions. As you keep asking yourself, “For whom is the mystery?” pretty soon you will stop saying I for me. For there will be a larger space between the question and the answer. When you say, “The mystery is for me, I think it’s a mystery,” there will be a large pause. And as you keep reiterating the question the pause becomes larger and larger. Now the good news is, that pause is consciousness. That pause is your reality, because you will find if you keep doing the process that in that pause there are no thoughts. There is a calmness, emptiness and you feel wonderful. I will explain the procedure again because I think it’s important. You get up in the morning and you haven’t been able o catch yourself between just awakening and sleeping. Where there is pure consciousness. Some of you think it’s hard to catch yourself. So instead of doing that you simply look at yourself and you start saying, “I am not my arms, I am not my legs, I am not my head, I am not my torso, I am not my bones or my organs or my reproduction organs or my respiration or anything else. I am not the blood, I am not the body. For whom is the body? I don’t know? Then am I the world or the universe? When I was asleep a few moments ago I did not experience the universe or the world or the body? But I do now when I’m awake. What about the rest of the things I experience or think about? God, planets, the sun, other dimensions, the world and all its manifestations, where do they come from? Well obviously I’m thinking of them so they must come from my mind. Yet who thinks? To whom do these thoughts come? They come to me. I’m thinking about my body and I’m thinking about the world. It appears that everything is attached to I. I, I, I. If somehow I can remove this I, I’ll be free. How do I remove the I? I don’t know. Who doesn’t know? I don’t know. What is it I don’t know? How to remove the I. Well where did the I come from? It’s a mystery.” When you ask, “Where did the I come from? What you mean actually is what is the source of the I. Never, never answer that question. When you begin to attain a peace and inner joy, bliss and your mind becomes quiet that is the answer. The answer has no words. Then I go back to I. What is the source of I? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. For whom is the mystery? For me. I am experiencing this mystery. It is I. I have all these questions. Who is body conscious. I am conscious of praying to God or thinking about my past lives or believing in my body. I am doing this. Then where does the I come from? I don’t know it’s a mystery. Again you notice I’ve slowed down then you will do the same thing. Every-time you say, “It’s a mystery,” you will keep quiet for a longer span of time. Remember you do not have to come to any conclusion. After you say it about four or five times you should be able to sit in the silence for at least five minutes, without any thoughts. This procedure will allow you to sit in the silence without thoughts for about five minutes. And that’s quite an accomplishment. For in those five minutes you will experience a joy and a peace and a profound happiness that you never really knew existed. You no longer have to carry on the conversation. You simply leave it alone. You get up and get dressed and do your business. Go to work whatever you do yet what you have done that morning will carry you along for the day. You will notice interesting things happening during the day. You will notice that you are happier during the day than you have been in a long time. That somehow your work is getting done without you thinking about it. People that you have quarreled with, you will feel a compassion and a loving kindness towards them. You will no longer have any enemies, if you had any before. You will feel a peace with the whole world. Even with the Iraq situation. Something within you will make you understand. You will not be able to explain it to anyone. That’s why when someone asked me before, “If I think that there is going to be a war?” I didn’t answer. You will realize that the answer is not sufficient for most people. But you will know and you will be hilariously happy, content, at peace with the world. When you come home from work or toward the evening before you go to sleep you can do something like this. You can say, “Now I’m going to sleep but who is it that is going to sleep? Why it’s the same I that awoke this morning. Now the I is going to sleep.” See what you’re doing you are getting more accustomed to the I and less accustomed to the body. Now you are saying, “I am going to sleep,” and you are not identifying too much with your body when you say, “I am going to sleep.” You are referring to a separate entity now. As if there were no body. You say, “Now I am going to sleep.” And your body will lie down and start snoring or start dreaming. But I can assure you that you will sleep more comfortably than you have in years. You will awaken being happy. If you continue this over a period of time. Every-time you wake up you are going to say, “I slept and I dreamt and now I’m awake. But I have absolutely nothing to do with the situation. I am not my body. I am not the one who dreamt and I am not the one who slept. Then who am I? It’s a mystery. A great mystery I don’t know. Who doesn’t know? I don’t know. Who is this I? What is the source of the I?” Again it’s a mystery. And remember the pause. Every time you keep repeating, “It’s a mystery,” the pause becomes greater and greater and greater. And in that pause there are no thoughts. You’re beginning to get good at this now. There are no thoughts, there are no feelings, there are no emotions. There is emptiness, joy, bliss. This is what is called parabrahman. And you will stay like that for a while then your body will get up and go about it’s business. But you remember all the time during the day that the bodies business has nothing to do with you. You have absolutely nothing to do with what your body’s experiencing. Therefore during the day when someone brings you bad news, I does not react. You just watch, you witness, you observe but you no longer feel a reaction. When I say you do not react I don’t mean you are putting it on. Don’t say to yourself, “I’m not supposed to react, I’m not supposed to react,” while you feel all torn apart inside. That’s the worst thing you can do. Yet if you have been practicing the procedure you will really find that no matter what is brought to your attention during the day there’s no reaction, there is only a witness. And you feel good all the time. So someone can bring you information about a death. You will have compassion, loving kindness you will feel good. If someone brings you information that you just won the lottery and you are 10 million dollars richer you will not react. You will witness, you will observe and you will feel good. No matter what happens in front of you there will no longer be a reaction. Just an observation by witnessing. And as you continue the procedure even the witnessing will stop. It will turn into something else. You will just know without words that all this is the Self and I am that. So there put that in your pocket and smoke it. SL: All this is the Self and I am that? (R: Yes.) Any questions? (pause) Nothing? SF: Robert when you say that the world doesn’t exist you are talking about the materiality of the world, right? R: I’m talking about any world that you can conceive.) (SF: Do you consider the world to be as a thought form and that is all we perceive?) True. (SF: And only consciousness exists.) Yes. But what is consciousness? (SF: Which could appear as thought?) No. (SF: What I mean to say thoughts can appear to be but they are not only consciousness is?) See only consciousness exists but the trouble we have is we use that word too loosely. What we should do is to say to ourselves, “What is consciousness?” We’ve all read in the books that only consciousness exists but now we want our own personal experience. So instead of voicing that only consciousness exists we should ask ourselves the question, “What is consciousness?” And again you tell yourself, “It’s a mystery. I don’t know.” You have to be honest. Do you see why it takes so many people to become self-realized? Because they memorize all these cliches. All these phraseologies. I am absolute reality. I am this I am that and they know the word consciousness. You’d be better off if you knew nothing of those things. But the way to handle it is to ask yourself, “Well what is consciousness? What am I talking about?” And of course you don’t know. Of course nobody knows what consciousness is. So you ask yourself or you tell yourself, “it’s a mystery I don’t know?” But you continue, you say, “Who doesn’t know? I don’t know?” You are always going back to I. “Who is this I that doesn’t know? It’s a mystery. For whom is the mystery? For me. Who am I? I don’t know.” Same procedure, same space. So the space is actually consciousness. But you will feel it. You will feel something that is beyond human understanding. But you will feel something. SR: Robert sometimes it feels like the mind almost throws up false signals or tries to block the seeing of this. (R: That’s called the ego.) And so the procedure in doing that would be more or less the same as what you are talking about. (R: The same procedure for everything.) It seems that the more I feel the deep space that I am the more there is going to be a message that tries to say no that’s something to be afraid of and you should go back to a solid world etc., etc. R: Then ask, “For whom is this message? Who is receiving this message? I am? Who am I? It’s a mystery, space.” If you did this often enough things will happen, definitely. But I’ll bet that 90 percent of us are not practicing. We are just waiting for something to happen. Maybe something will happen I don’t know? It’s a mystery. (laughs) You’ve got to do something with your life while you are waiting. So you might as well do the procedure. SG: Isn’t it predetermined whether we’re going to do something or not? (R: It’s better than pulling weeds.) SH: Who is determining what they’re going to do? R: Noone. There is no determiner. There is a terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger. (students laugh) But there is noone to determine anything. See don’t think of those things. You should always think, “Where does the I come from who thinks about these things?” That’s the important question. And when you say to yourself, it’s a mystery, there will automatically be a space. And again you will start to feel that space as bliss, as joy, as happiness, as peace, as the Self. And you will know. And you will know that you know. SF: Don’t fight it. (laughs) Sometimes George is just walking the street and just gets so high for no reason whatsoever and the only way I can explain it to myself is tell him I’m not on drugs, it just is. (R: You must be doing something right.) Sometimes I just sit in bed it’s just a lot of fun and I put on a deadly serious, pedantic face and a deadly serious one is asking, “What is this fun?” and the answer comes, “Enjoyment” and I put on a demonstrators face and I ask, “What’s enjoyment and again it said, “Just being my Self.” R: You hear that Jay? He is in bed all day like you. (laughter) (SL: What was that?) No, Jay has trouble getting out of bed. (SL: Oh.) (laughter) There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with anything. All is well. SG: There is always that cliche of following your conscience. When I hear that I feel like I’m doing something wrong, like I hear this voice coming and I ask, “And where did that voice come from?” And it’s still from that I, the conscience. There really is no conscience. Follow your conscience. (R: It’s like there is no devil.) Right. (R: Conscience is something you make up.) SK: The man in the head. (R: What?) The man in the head. (R: Oh yes.) SG: The good thoughts and the bad thoughts come from the same place. R: From no place. So that’s the way it is. SL: Robert, is it all love? (R: You can say that, sure.) Could you say that? Yes, I’m kidding. (laughs) (R: It depends what you mean by love? What kind of love?) SG: What does that mean, when you use that word, God is love. I never quiet got to understanding it. R: Well that’s something you learn from the Bible. But nobody really has an understanding of what it means. God, love, reality, consciousness, absoluteness they are all synonymous. But you have to ask yourself, “What do these terms mean to me? Who hears these terms? I do.” And go right back to I and you go through the same procedure. SL: Today it came up while I was practicing, that phrase, “It’s all love,” and I really felt that it was so, how far can that be taken? Like a rose, a ’57 chevrolet and the atom bomb, it’s all love? R: So you don’t really feel that because you still have confusion about the atom bomb and the chevrolet. (SL: I am embarrassed to say so, but it’s alright. Is it alright?) Everything is alright. (SL: Everything is alright. So the atom bomb is alright?) I’m not asking you to accept that. I’m asking you to find out for yourself. Yes it’s alright. But don’t accept it blindly. (SL: I don’t.) Find out for yourself. Don’t believe me why should you? Find out for yourself. SF: So Robert all what’s left to do is just accept your ignorance, living in mystery and practice self-inquiry? (R: Yes.) That’s it, I mean that is, all the rest is just a waste of time? R: You can say that, sure, yes. (laughter) You’re right. Think of all the things we did today that was a waste of time. We got angry, we got upset, we didn’t get our way and we got mad at someone, or when we were thinking of something that made us angry. Or we reacted to somebody. Think of today, just today. All the wasted time. You watch soap operas all day. Think how you wasted your time. SL: It’s possible while, if you say a person is wasting his time it’s possible to practice the technique while we’re even wasting our time. Wondering who is walking down the street, who is opening the door, who is washing the lettuce? R: It’s very possible but it is harder. Especially for beginners because you are going to think more abut the lettuce than you are going to think about self-realization. You will get involved in your task. (SL: To the contrary, when you first said the body will take care of itself I felt well away from that, but today, the body was really opening the refrigerator and crushing the garlic.) Your body was crushing the garlic? (SL: Uh-uh.) You mean you crush garlic with your body? (laughter) (S: A very picturesque idea Robert.) (laughs) I can just see you… (SL: Like stomping on grapes or just throwing myself against the garlic. (laughs) But that’s it though isn’t it. The body is really taking care of itself?) Always does. (SL: And we can watch?) Yes. (SL: And watching is fine?) If you can do it, that’s good. (tape break) SF: If you are watching a sunset it just kind of pulls you in without you even thinking about it. What would that be? R: That would be getting pulled into the sunset without thinking about it. (laughter) It would be an interesting state. (SF: Oh, okay.) But it comes out of your mind.) SL: What is speaking in tongues? Is there any connection with your condition with that? R: How many tongues do have to speak? (laughter) (SL: No, I’ve heard people say, this is what Christians say, that this is a gift from God and a connection with God and all this.) Well let them enjoy themselves. Allow them to speak in tongues. Leave them alone. (SL: I wondered if it had anything to do with this bliss.) No. (SL: Sort of a verbal bliss.) No. Why if you have bliss would you want to speak in tongues. You would want to shut up and keep still. (laughter) That’s really funny. You can see a Jnani walking down the street blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (students laugh) Leave the world alone. Let people do what they have to do. There are all kinds of people in the world doing all kinds of things. Let them be. Just love them and let them alone and you do what you have to do. SL: Well I’m still up for roller coaster rides and things like that and if it were sort of a firmer roller coaster ride I’d be interested to know what it was like. R: Well whatever you feel you have to do you have to do. (student laughs) See this isn’t the type of satsang where I give you rules and regulations and I say, “You can do this but you cannot do this. You can do that but you are not supposed to do that.” You do what you feel you have to do until the time comes when you no longer need to do it. If you practice this procedure you will slow down. In other words the more you practice the more blissful you become. The world cannot give you that bliss. So why would you want to get involved in the world. You become bliss yourself. SL: A lot of things are hang overs from when we were kids and we feel that exhilaration and if we don’t really understand true peace… R: Well of course. While you are human you will experience all those things. There is nothing wrong with that but I’m speaking as you follow this kind of procedure and as you begin to unfold higher and higher you will let go of the world more and more. Because you will realize that the world cannot give you real happiness. No matter what you acquire. It’s all temporary. (SL: So acquisitions are burdens?) So if I wanted to give you a million dollars you wouldn’t take it because it’s a burden? (SL: Well speaking of things.) (laughter) That’s a thing. (SL: I know that’s a hypothetical question.) SR: Things are great so I’ll go along with that. (R: Things are great?) I enjoy things. SL: Yes but… (R: There is nothing new.) …I enjoyed things a lot when I was younger and I have a lot of things and now I go through them and realize that it takes a lot of time away from what I really want to do, sort of, sorting them out, dusting them. R: So you’re acquiring the feeling and that’s the way to do it. I’m not saying to give up a thing. Enjoy what you’re enjoying. But like you just said as you grow spiritually those things cease to amuse you. They no longer give you enjoyment. But don’t put it on. Do not say, “I have to put on a blank face,” and not enjoy life. Enjoy what you are enjoying. Do what you are doing until the time comes that you no longer have to do it. SR: Robert, you know I had this feeling if I put it in the right terms, like moving across this bridge toward this state and I have a terrible feeling that when I reach the end, I’m going to reach this void. An empty void that’s almost like dust. There is nothing there. And I’m afraid that at this moment looking at it at the way you’re describing it, it doesn’t seem like a wonderful place to end up because I haven’t experienced it. Whereas all of the things in the world as I have experienced it, I know what they are like and I can touch them and discard them and go through them. And I can discard and… R: Yet things happen to you that you don’t like. You go through all kinds of experiences. There must be something else that is permanent and there is. (SR: I see that clearer and clearer, I really do.) Then all you got to do is practice the procedure and look what happens and watch. Or come to satsang like you do and watch what happens as the weeks pass. See what happens to you. Things will happen automatically. SR: I guess I’m wanting the reassurance that you understand where a person like me is, which I think a lot of people experience. To that common ground where we see a material world with things and the other is there but it’s sort of like a mystery. And really arriving at it and being sure that there is that solid ground, (you can’t call it solid ground), but there’s this attitude of… (R: And you can’t even be sure.) (laughter) …I just want to be sure that you understand that there are a lot of entities out here who don’t have sure footing about what to expect when you push through this. R: Of course, see this is why for most people to get into things like this the rug sometimes has to pulled from under them. They have to have a sort of a negative experience in life and then they get up and ask themselves, “What is life really all about?” and they get involved in teachings like this. But most people are having a relatively a happy life in the world which of course is due to karma, think that they are going to continue this happiness. But I can assure you it will not continue. It has to stop somewhere and you have to start experiencing the opposite. As for every up there is a down, for every forward there is a backward. For every amount of pressure pushed forward the same amount of pressure is pushed backward as in the flight of jet planes. That is all duality. And everybody experiences duality now and again. The world is impermanent and if you stick to the world you will always be disappointed. And let’s say you even have joyous times all your life because of karma. The time will come when you’re old 90, 95 years old and you become invalid and senile and crippled, like President Reagan, then what are you going to do? You will become disillusioned you will say, I was so happy all of my life. Now I can’t get out of my bed. People have to bathe me and feed me and take care of me, what happened? You will be completely disillusioned. So why not search for it now and become free? Why not make this your main objective to become free and liberated? Ask yourself, “Why not?” SK: Why do things get so slow? (students laugh) Uninterested in the outside world and they lose their enthusiasm to do spiritual practice. (R: Well that can be apathy.) Um-hm. (R: It can be apathy because…) What if it’s coming from a state of meditation which becomes no different then everything else one is doing? R: You’re apparently on the wrong track then. Maybe you have too many practices. So what you should ask yourself, “To whom do these feelings come? Why do I have these feelings? Where did they come from?” Inquire within yourself. (SK: Feelings of?) The feelings of apathy. (SK: I don’t know if it is apathy, I’m wondering.) Well whatever it is. You don’t have to know what they are just ask yourself, “To whom do they come and why?” And something will happen. SK: I think what I’m also asking is, you give practical advice to someone and if so related to discipline, is discipline something important? R: Do I give practical advice? (SK: Yeah.) No, I’m very unpractical. I can’t give practical advice. (SK: You once gave me very practical advice one time.) It appears to be practical. (laughter) The practical advice is always in the end to find out who you are. That’s the most practical advice I can give. And sometimes I will talk to you besides that and tell you what you call practical. But I will always end up by telling you, “Find out your true nature, discover your Self.” SK: In other words if I’m blowing my nose too hard and as a result blood continually pours out of my nose and someone gives practical advice by observation and said, “You are blowing your nose too hard.” (R: Oh I remember that, yes.) That’s why blood is coming out of your nose and don’t do that. So in the same way practical advice for someone who maybe is having some changes or whatever and decides to dissolve whatever discipline they have or what not, whether, practically speaking, discipline in one’s life is important. )R: For some people. If you think it’s important continue with it.) I mean just discipline one’s life. R: In a way you are right. See it’s very paradoxical. You are right in a way but for some people it is not important. Everybody is different. But it always goes back to selfinquiry. If you ask yourself, “Who needs discipline? And why?” You will realize that your real Self never really needed any discipline because you’re already awake. (SK: Then what, is an experience of this enthusiasm for life by any chance?) The experience of this maybe enthusiasm for life but you’re going back to your body. (SK: Yeah.) If your body has to have enthusiasm for life it will, and it will do whatever it has to do. But you will always be aware that you’re not that. It has nothing to with you. (SK: It brings it right to that point. If one is experiencing equanimity to the extent that nothing appears to be any more important than anything else?) You will experience that as the I, as consciousness. But your body will still go and do it’s work. (SK: Unless the body has nothing to do then it won’t do anything?) Yes. (SK: And if that continues to happen then in a material way then changes occur. As changes occur and one needs to make some money perhaps or something then one is forced into a situation where one has to respond in a different way.) Again no, there is no different way. If you inquire “For whom do these things happen,” the right thing will take place. Right action will take place in your life. (SK: Ah, but one should not wait for it.) Well it depends what you are supposed to do. You have got nothing to do with it. (SK: Okay. I wonder if there is a pitfall with that process of sitting back and waiting for something? To occur outside of…) You are not supposed to do that, no, who told you to do that? (S: Well…) (tape break Robert then continues) R: …you are doing, then inquire, “Who is the doer?” and see if you sit back and wait. And if you are supposed to sit back and wait you will not even have any questions because you will be so in bliss and so happy and so joyous that you couldn’t care what your body does. (tape break) R: …good things. Your body will take care of itself. (S: When all concern for it is gone?) But you have nothing to do with it. See don’t even think about “without concern,” your mind is telling you all these things. Your mind is hanging on to whatever I say. There is no such thing as “without concern.” The I will take care of you. The I is your life. It is your substance. It is God. It is consciousness. It is I-am. It will always take care of you have no fear. You’ve got to trust it. Surrender yourself to I and let I take care of everything. It’s like carrying your luggage in the train. Would you carry your luggage on your head and have that heavy burden? When you can put it into a compartment and let the train take you to its destiny. While the luggage is in the compartment. So what you’re doing now Jay, you’re carrying your luggage on your head. (SK: In the train, while it’s moving.) In the train. The train is God. So give God your luggage. Give God your burdens. (SK: I’m not having burdens right now.) And you will get to your… (SK: The only burden I get…) (tape break) R: If you focus on the I on the source. Always on the source and not to think too much. The source, the source will take care of you. God. The source will always take care of you if you think of it. You’ve got to think of God and God will think of you, so-to-speak. SF: Robert, what about hope in the context of… (R: Hope?) Yeah in the context of the practice of self-inquiry. (R: Hope, hope for what.) (laughter) Most of the people who have been practicing self-inquiry is thinking something, in the beyond. When you yourself explain about what may happen and what may happen may be something wonderful. That’s breeding hope. R: No I was saying what may happen. (SF: Yes.) I didn’t say to hope it happens. (SF: When people listen to that they may understand…) Oh I see what you mean. (SF: …That there is something to hope for.) Oh I understand. (SF: That’s my question.) Yes. Well if you’ve got to think of something, think about good things. Think about that something wonderful is going to happen to you sooner or later. That’s good. There is nothing wrong with that. (SF: Right.) It is better than thinking something bad is going to happen. So think while you are practicing that one day I will be free. One day I will be realized like right now and hold onto that. SR: Robert, also I was thinking how important that keeping good company, if you want to call it good company. Some of the people I associate with, I have one friend who is in the entertainment field and he has his own show and every-time I am around him he presents a whole reality that is something I’m trying to fight against. Shouldn’t be fighting it, but it sort of brings me down and it seems so important to stick with people who have the same set of values that are heading toward wanting to find realization. R: So why are you around this person? (SR: Well for one thing he is the most amusing and enjoyable people from a humor point of view that I have found, which is just a little earthly pleasure. Earthly pleasure is of some sort.) As long as you believe you’re having entertainment and fun with this person, continue. (SR: Just take it for that?) And work on the process. (SR: Yeah, I understand.) And it will all work out. That’s what I meant before when I said, “Do not just give things up.” Continue where you are at and work on yourself. And then what you have to drop will drop by itself. SK: Doesn’t the karma make it really impossible to give something up that you can’t because you’re still karmically going to do? (R: Yes.) R: Yes. Everything will always work itself out. You’ve nothing to do with it. (SG: Just playing the part.) No you don’t even play the part. The part will play you. When you say, “Play my part,” it’s like you have got a part to play. SH: Yeah like, “Who are you?” (R: Yeah.) (laughs) SG: I just read something in an Ad. It sort of frees me at the same time and it kind of scares me. What it was: If I have nothing to with being born and I have nothing to do with dying and what makes me think I have anything to do with what is going on in between. (R: That’s good.) It brings freedom but at the same time it’s like giving up, giving up, me doing anything at all. R: Well if you are doing it physically it’s wrong. But if it just comes to you and you feel great about it then it’s right. (SG: Well what I feel attracted on an earthly plane, but in my mind is all this criticism and comparing and judging and…) So go and inquire within yourself. Ask yourself the questions, “To whom does this come? Who feels this?” (SG: But it seems such compelling.) But ask yourself, “Why do I do this? Who needs to do this? To whom does it come?” You will be surprised at what happens. Excuse me I’ve to go to the bathroom. Of what I’m talking about now. I have to go to the bathroom. I don’t ask myself, “Who has to go to the bathroom?” I don’t deny myself I just do it spontaneously. (laughter) I don’t even think about it because that is the body taking care of itself, I’ve got nothing to do with it… (break in tape) …The appearance of the body does those things of course. From all appearances I’m just an average guy but I know I’ve got nothing to do with that. SR: It’s like the mind that says if you stop controlling and all that then something will go wrong and that’s the only thing to do is to eliminate all that and everything will be okay. R: Yes, that’s what I meant, “We’ve got to trust God. We’ve got to surrender all this to God.” Who is none other than your Self. SG: Is this the process of surrendering. Is what you were saying before, that process? R: That process is surrendering too, yes. Because you stop thinking you say, “It’s a mystery,” you give it all up. You surrender, you’re quiet and still. When your mind becomes quiet and still then you’ve surrendered to God. SF: The same as “it’s a mystery” is the same thing as “I don’t know.” (R: Yes.) Then you open yourself then. (R: Yes.) SR: Robert I asked you once before but does anyone ever understand the mystery? Even no matter what stage you reach or would you say that when you reach a certain state it doesn’t matter, that just disappears? R: The mystery disappears, everything disappears. (SR: So that’s the answer to the mystery then of…?) There is no answer because everything is emptiness, consciousness. Everything is pure delight. (SR: I’m scared that one can’t know it or living it through.) Don’t. Well to whom does the fear come? To whom does the fear come? Ask yourself. Who has that fear? And it will disappear. Always ask yourself. Because your real Self, there is no such word as fear. Fear is for the body and the ego. SG: I can’t seem to be able to get beyond that. R: So far. Tomorrow is another day. But I always tell you not to put yourself down. Do not think you are a dunce or there is something wrong with you, or you can’t get far. Just take it as it comes and keep up the procedure. It’s like becoming a surgeon. You work on dead bodies until you get it right. (students laugh) (tape break) SR: …the unknown. I’m just having to have faith that it’s all going to be okay. R: You want me to give you a certificate? (SR: That’s helpful at least to me. It’s just believing that it’s all going to be good.) Find out for yourself, don’t believe me. What if I were just a trickster and none of these things were real, I just made it all up? (SR: That’s good.) Find out for yourself. SF: I have one question to myself. I wanted to know what was the greatest fear? And I came to a conclusion that the only way to… the greatest fear was totally ceasing to be. Is there a greater fear than that? (R: Nope.) I was once driving to Santa Monica and for the time I was driving in the car I didn’t care if this body ceased to be, at that moment, it didn’t bother me at all. At that moment. (tape damage) R: …The last three or four years of his life he was in terrible pain. He had rheumatism and cancer. So if you saw him then and you do not understand this teaching you would say, “Who wants to follow this path?” If you saw him when he was sick and you do not understand the teaching you would say to yourself, “Who wants to follow something like that? Who is wasting away? Why should I believe him at all?” Because you want somebody to be robust and strong and happy and healthy. That’s an appearance and appearances change. That’s a hard one to explain. When you see someone in pain you should immediately help. Until you get to the stage where you understand and then you’ll help even more. Here is a good example: Today I was taking a walk to the bank and a dog got hit by a car. And the dog was lying there in the middle of the road. The dog was not dead but was in pain it was howling. Some people got there and I walked over and I observed and I watched and I felt for the dog. I had a great love, a great compassion for the dog. But just like a miracle a car pulled over and it was a vet and he felt the dog and he said the dog had a broken rib. And bandaged the dog and took him to the hospital. What’s the point of this story? I forgot. That the dog is consciousness and all is well. SY: So if the vet hadn’t come along you would have taken the dog to the hospital? R: There were other people there to take care of that. If I had the opportunity I would. (SY: Do you warn?) That’s not my business I don’t think that way. Just there to help the best I can. (Tape break. Tape continues with question from student.) SL: …well could it be that he had collected karmas of others? R: Could be, possibly. (SL: What is that?) I don’t think he was ill. He never died. (SL: Robert at another level would the explanation of the cancer be that?) That’s possible. But I don’t see it like that. With these things there is no cancer, there is no death, and there is no suffering. (SL: Then there is no Ramana Maharshi.) Not as a person. SK: So everyone in this room helped just as much as you did in helping that dog? R: You can say that sure because there is only one. (Tape break. Tape returns but not in same place as it left.) R: …No that’s duality. Somebody has to be healed, there is nobody there to be healed. No one exists to be healed and he never went anywhere. He was the same with a body or without it. (SL: So then if no one existed to get ill but he did?) For whom? To you. (SK: And not even to you. Just someone who told you he was. He may or may not have seen something on the appearance level.) All is well. SR: Does it all boil down to how real do we want this waking state to be. R: Well you can’t really say that because it has nothing to do with you. Your body and your mind will take care of that for you. Therefore the only salvation is to get rid of the body and the mind. (SH: Which you never had in the first place.) That’s right. (SR: I mean where the freedom is, is not in the waking state that I think I’m in?) I don’t see you as any waking state at all. I don’t see you as awake or unawake or sleeping. I just see you as you see me, as one consciousness, one unit, there’s no difference. SG: Is all my perceptions, there is nobody doing anything to me. There is nobody here? R: That’s right. (SG: Whatever is going on is my own little creation?) Exactly. (SG: Nothing happens?) That’s true. (SG: Outside?) Right. Everything is an emanation of your own mind. (SG: That’s frightening.) No it’s beautiful. (SG: It’s beautiful in a sense, but at the same time it scares me.) (laughs) Who is scared? Ask yourself, “Who is frightened?” SR: For Bob to participate with us he might gain knowledge. This little body sitting around in this room here that you seem to acknowledge and answer questions to, that there is some sort of agreed upon reality to them. R: I do? I do not have to acknowledge anything. I just acknowledge that you are reality. That you are ultimate oneness. Pure awareness. I’ll acknowledge that. Everything else is your business. (SH: Hallelujah.) (laughs) Let’s become still for a few moments. (long silence then tape restarts abruptly as Robert continues) R: …a telephone answering machine. I want to thank you for it. About two weeks ago, (I’m getting a large amount of phone calls.) So I told my Self, “Self you need a telephone answering machine.” Today UPS comes and delivers one for me. Some cheap place down in Chicago. I called them up and told them I didn’t order one. So they said “it’s all paid for.” So now I just have to connect it. (tape ends)