Transcript:
Robert: It’s good to be with you again. This week I got an unusual amount of phone calls, more than I usually get. People are telling me they feel depressed, out of sorts. I asked each one of them, “What are you doing all day?” and they said, “I am watching the war on TV.” Is it any wonder they get depressed? When you still believe that you are the body then you also believe in other bodies. Consequently, when you watch a war on TV all day long, then you’re feeling those bodies that are getting killed, and so you feel depressed. Do you see what I’m saying? If you believe you’re the body-mind phenomena then you are also the body-mind of the whole universe, because there is only one body and that’s the entire world. In other words you are everyone’s body. Naturally you will be affected by seeing bodies being killed in the war. The smart thing to do is not to watch, but work on yourself. Raise your consciousness to such a high state that you will be above and beyond the war and you will see it from a different perspective. Everything is consciousness, everything. When you ask, “What is consciousness?” there is no valid answer, so I remain silent. Therefore you can say that consciousness is silence. When someone asks me to write a book or give a lecture, then I have to explain consciousness in about fifty different words, and each word has another fifty words to explain that, and those words have another fifty words. So a voluminous book is written, with eight-hundred pages. What does it say? “Everything is consciousness.” I could have written one page, and in the middle of the page I would say, “Everything is consciousness.” The rest is a blank. This is the reason why I do not write books, because there is nothing to say. See how confusing it is? We read so many books during the week. You usually do not remember what you read, and if you do, it’s intellectual. You’re using somebody else’s words, where in truth you should be using your own words and having your own experience. I don’t know what consciousness is, but I am that. If I knew what consciousness was it wouldn’t be that, because I would be voicing a word, and the word would be limited, by the very voicing of the word. So consciousness is a no-thing. It’s nothing you can pin down. It’s nothing you can describe. It’s nothing you can write a book about. Consciousness is silence. Sometimes I say, “Consciousness is absolute reality,” and those are more words, and I have to explain absolute reality. Consciousness is ultimate oneness, pure intelligence. Consciousness is all of those things. But what are those things? Again they’re just words. Sometimes I say consciousness is love, bliss, sat-chit-ananda, knowledge, being, existence. Those are just words, and you get a good feeling from the words, but the feeling doesn’t last too long, for you have not digested the words. You have not become a living embodiment of consciousness. The only way you can do that is by keeping still. If you want to solve any problem in life do not try to solve it verbally. Become quiet. It is a known fact that people like Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, and others, when they had a mathematical equation to solve, they would sit in their rocking chair for hours in the silence and everything would be revealed to them. That’s how Einstein came up with his theory of relativity, if you read his life story. He used to spend hours sitting by himself in the silence, and everything was revealed to him scientifically. So it is with you. If you want the answer to any problem, do not run to a psychiatrist, or a lawyer, or even a doctor, but sit by yourself and listen. Yourself has all the answers. Why? For, as we discussed Sunday, every atom of the universe is within you. You are that. You are the entire universe. You are the microcosm in the macrocosm. Therefore all the answers in the universe must also be in you. All of the solutions, all of the wisdom, all of the happiness and bliss you’ve been searching for, it’s within you. That’s what Jesus meant when he said, “I and my Father are one,” and also, “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” He wasn’t talking about a person called the Father. He was talking about a universal principal of harmony, of bliss, of joy. He was speaking of consciousness. It’s within you. It is you. You are that. You have always been that. It isn’t far away. It’s right where you are. And as you sit in the silence, and think of these things, you will begin to realize something very interesting. You will begin to realize and understand, “Well, if my body is consciousness, it cannot be a body, for it cannot be both. It cannot be consciousness and my body. So it’s duality.” So as you start to think about the word consciousness in the silence, it is revealed to you that you have no body. There is only consciousness. And it doesn’t seem strange at all. For when you begin to understand and fathom what consciousness really is you will realize it is self-contained. Consciousness knows only consciousness. It doesn’t know the universe. It doesn’t know bodies. It doesn’t know problems. It doesn’t know wars. It doesn’t know man’s inhumanity to man. It doesn’t know anything you know. It only knows itself as pure awareness. And as you sit by yourself in the silence this becomes perfectly clear. And all of a sudden the realization comes to you, “I have no problems. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the world. There is nothing going on. There is only consciousness.” I know this sounds strange to some of you because you’re so identified with your body-mind that you say, “What about the experiences going on here? What about this? What about my rent that I have to pay next week? And what about my husband who left me? And what about my job that I have been terminated from, that’s all very real.” Of course it’s real because you are identifying with the body. So it is very, very real. There are not two worlds. There is not the world of the body, and the world of the universe, and the world of your problems and affairs, and also the world of consciousness. There is only consciousness and you are that. Just listening to this sets you free. It sets you free from all doubt and limitation. You begin to feel immortality. You begin to understand that you were never born. How can consciousness be born? And if you were never born how can you die? What dies? Well, some of you say, “The body,” but I tell you there is no body who dies. There is just nobody home. There never was a body, there is no body, and there never will be a body. If you can’t see that yet, or feel it, don’t worry about it. All I ask you to do is to sit in the silence. Everything will be revealed to you. This is why I always tell newcomers, “Don’t believe me. Don’t believe a word I say. Find out for yourself.” Everything I share with you is from my own experiences, not what I read in a book or what someone else told me. When I went to see Ramana Maharshi in 1947 I went to confirm my own experiences, and I laughed when I realized there was someone else who felt what I felt. This teaching appears abstract to some people, but it’s not really abstract. It’s truth. It’s reality, it’s your reality. Someone may say, “This is too highfaluting for me. I want something practical. I want to improve my humanhood. I just want to live my life out, and be a millionaire and be healthy, and have a mansion.” In other words you want to have what you think you should have. So does everyone else in this world. But are they happy? Are they fulfilled? Statistics show that there are more suicides amongst the rich than the poor. Therefore if being a multimillionaire is so great why are there so many suicides? Simply because everything must change. We live in a world, as you know, of constant change. And if you don’t accept that you suffer. As I explained Sunday, your body, what you call your body, is in a state of constant flux. It’s never the same, just like the universe. There is nothing solid. There is nothing permanent about anything in the universe. Everything is in a constant state of vibration. What appears to be this body vibrates at a certain rate. What appears to be a dog vibrates at a slower rate. What appears to be the chair vibrates at a slower rate also. The more gross something is the slower it vibrates, but everything vibrates. Everything is composed of atoms and energy with tremendous space between. Nothing is solid. When you realize that your body is not solid, and is not what it appears to be, how can you still identify with it? Foolish. You can tell to what extent you are identifying with your body by the way you react to situations. If a situation still makes you angry, or uptight or depressed, then you know for sure you’re identifying with the body. On the other hand, you don’t go to the other extreme and say, “I don’t care and I don’t give a damn about anything.” If you didn’t you wouldn’t say it. It’s not a case of not giving a damn. The more evolved you become, the more compassionate you become, the more you show loving kindness to everything, to the mineral kingdom, to the vegetable kingdom, to the animal kingdom, and to the human kingdom. You show total compassion, loving kindness. You become an embodiment of love simply because everyone is you. “I am my brother and my brother is me,” as Emerson said. There is no differentiation between you and Saddam or Bush or anyone else. So you don’t humanly love these people and you do not humanly hate these people. It’s just an experience that the world is going through. Remember when you believe in your body, then the world is becoming very real to you. And this world is a third grade world. Like the third grade in school. There are other planets and other galaxies, there are fourth grades, and fifth grades, and sixth grades, and high school and college, but that’s all an illusion. Yet if you identify with the body-mind phenomena there’s a whole series of planets, just as there’s a whole series of bodies. It’s all the same. Don’t you see? As long as you believe you are the body then there are millions and billions of bodies, and the world is a body, the universe is a body. So there are millions of worlds. There are trillions of galaxies. There are trillions of universes. And all this happens because you believe you are the body. Isn’t that something? So can’t you see now it’s your fault that everything is happening in this universe. You are the creator. Everything is an emanation of your mind. It’s you who think up these things that are going on in the world today. If you want to stop it, if you don’t like what you created, stop identifying with it. Instead dive deep, deep within and identify with your Self, which is consciousness, absolute awareness. As soon as you begin to identify with your Self then the whole world becomes your Self, as within, so without, as above, so below. Can you see the picture now? What you are seeing in this world is your Self. If you don’t like what you see do not try to change person, place, or thing. Change your outlook. And you have to be able to catch yourself, all day long. Do not get caught up in a situation if you feel out of sorts, and you feel disappointed, and you feel depressed because someone spoke harshly to you, or someone told you something you didn’t like to hear, or someone did something to you, or whatever, that’s why it appears in most instances that if someone really evolved to a high state the worst of conditions sometimes seem to befall that person. And when the worst of conditions befall you it’s a blessing in disguise. It means you’re growing and all these things are coming to you to prove to you and to show you that you are not that. And so you turn within and see the truth, identify with the truth. “I am the imperishable Self, the absolute reality, pure intelligence, emptiness, nirvana, ultimate oneness. I am that.” Then when you open your eyes you will see a different universe. You will see love, harmony, joy, bliss. You are seeing your Self. I therefore ask you the question, what do you want to see in this world? Condition, after condition, after condition after condition? Even if, because of karma you are living a relatively good life, it means nothing. Even if you are living a relatively happy life, you have perfect health, you have a perfect wife or husband, you have perfect employment, you have a perfect income, you have a perfect home, you have perfect children, it means absolutely nothing, for there is a law of the universe that says everything must change. And as long as you are identifying with the universe, you must go through those changes. Now you may not find much of a change in this life. But remember what you call your life is but a split second in eternity, (finger snap) like that, you’re here and you’re gone. Because of time and space you think you have seventy, eighty, whatever years to live. Nope, your life is but a split second in all eternity, then you‘re gone. If you have not found your reality or your Self, you may come back again to this planet or to another planet, and the person who is living a relatively good life here, has to go through the change. You may be born during the dark ages, when the world has gone back around again, and you may get caught up in the inquisition, where you’re caught as a spy or something, and you’re tortured, and your toes are cut off, and your fingers are cut off, and your tongue is ripped out, and you go through happy experiences like those. That’s the other side of the coin. That’s why I say if you are living a relatively good life, do not say to yourself, “I don’t need this teaching, I’ve got everything I want.” I’ve heard so many people tell me this. They say, “This teaching, Robert, is for people who are miserable, who are not fulfilled.” I don’t even answer those people. They are deluded into believing that because they’ve got the good things in life that’s it. Little do they know, the experiences they’re going to go through when the change comes, whether in this life or another life. That’s why the smart thing to do is to transcend all human experience, for human experience is a big lie. In reality there is no human experience. There’s no experience whatsoever. There is no foundation for creation. Only consciousness exists, and you are that. Any questions? SL: I have a question or a comment. (R: Good.) I think I’ve watched more war on TV and felt less depressed. (R: Less depressed?) Because of your exercise. And I know that I have to do it myself but I can’t get it from an outside authority. But I know when I left here on Sunday, the power of the exercises, the “who am I questions were so impressed that I could sit and watch war and I didn’t get depressed by this. And when I left on Sunday I said to myself that I should take – even though you didn’t give us an exercise that I could give it to myself and as you have always been saying this is what we must do at every moment. But I didn’t do it and suddenly Monday I woke up and for no reason I was just depressed it was as if somehow I had risen myself this entire week and maybe somethings were waiting around and they all came up. It still may be a higher ground because I have been seeing things more clearly. If something is sad emotionally it’s an outside force and I know better. But I still emotionally… R: Yes. That’s a good comment and question. That’s why I do not give you exercises every week because they become a crutch. And you begin to depend upon them. You look at the “I am” or the “who am I?” as if it is an entity by itself, as if that is your savior. But I say to you, you’ve got to transcend even that and be able to sit in the silence. And go deep, deep within yourself, where you become I am without the words. It is therefore very well in the beginning of teachings like this, not to watch too much TV, not to watch anything, not to read too many newspapers. Not even to read a newspaper. But to try to work on yourself continuously. For as you said, you may build yourself up for a while and then you’re able to take all these things, wars, confusion whatever is coming your way. But the world gets a little too much for you after a while due to the fact that you have not transcended completely. I had some people calling me also and telling me they feel depressed and out of sorts this week and they didn’t watch the TV. What happened? What happened is this: They are still identifying with the body and they are picking up the collective unconscious of the human race. So in todays world there is a fear in the collective whole. People are worried about the war. It’s like a negative vibration that goes into the atmosphere. And many people that are passive pick it up. They wake up in the morning they feel out of sorts, they feel depressed and they have no reason to be, that’s what is happening to them. The way they should handle it is this way: They should observe themselves and see what’s happening to them and then ask themselves the question, “To whom does this come?” Of course the answer will come, “This comes to me. I feel this.” Then you ask, “Who is the I that feels this? Where did that I come from? Who gave it birth. Who am I?” and you do not answer that question. If the feeling still persists you do it all over again. You ask, “To whom does this come? To me, I feel it.” After a while you will begin to realize that all of your depressions all of your out of sort feelings, everything even the good things are attached to the I. The first pronoun I. You begin to understand, I don’t want to change my depression into happiness for that’s two sides of the same coin. What I want to do is to transcend the I and everything will go with that. And you do that by asking the question, “Where did the I come from? What is I?” or “Who am I?” whatever you like, and then you wait and you ask again and you wait and you ask again. If you are now bombarded by other thoughts you repeat the procedure over again. To whom does this come? And you go through it again. You have to have patience and realize that what you are doing is very important and one day something will happen and you will realize who the I really is and what it is and you will be free. ST: Excuse me Robert, there is a saying in the Veda’s, “there is no beginning but there is an end.” (R: Where does it say that?) Well different teachers have told me that. R: Well what they really mean is the saying, “All is Brahman and I am that.” If that is what you were referring to? (ST: No. A clear statement from a lot of teachers that there is no beginning but there is an end.) How can there be an end? (ST: Through ignorance probably?) Excuse me? (ST: Through ignorance, an end to ignorance.) Oh I see what you mean. There is an end. (ST: Yes but no beginning. I don’t understand what they mean by no beginning.) There was no beginning to begin with. But when you got caught up in maya there will be an end to that. (ST: Right.) That is what it means. (ST: I guess so yeah.) There never was a beginning and there never will be a beginning. But you somehow came along to believe that the body is real, the mind is real, the world is real and the universe is real. That belief has to come to an end. (ST: Yeah. That will come to an end.) Yes, sooner or later. That’s what I was talking about. (ST: What I didn’t understand is that why they say there was no beginning.) Because there is no substance, there is no substratum. There is nothing that began the universe. But you came along in this world like a dream. But it has no beginning. As example when you are dreaming does the dream have a beginning. You don’t dream about Adam and Eve. The dream starts somewhere. There never was a beginning but it ends, doesn’t it? You wake up. So the dream had no beginning but had an end. ST: Wow. I understand what you’re saying but in the ritual consciousness I still would say that I remember a dream from the beginning was such and such. R: But it wasn’t a real beginning. (ST: Something started to happen. I felt myself dreaming that.) You didn’t feel yourself dreaming you just started dreaming. That you’re in a palace, or riding in the plane, or you’re married with children. (ST: Right.) But you didn’t start from a beginning when creation was born. There is no beginning. That is just a continuing dream. (ST: If that is what is meant I don’t know that is what…) Yes that’s whats going on. (ST: …I’m questioning. And the other thing what I’m questioning is like you say you are beyond all that. All this is the maya stuff, right? Is that what you say?) I have nothing to do with maya. (ST: You have nothing to do with maya. You are full of unconditional happiness and love? Is that what you are saying?) That’s what you are saying. (ST: No, no, no I’m asking you what you’ve experienced. What do you experience right now?) Peace. (ST: Peace, but you are not in ecstasy right now?) Ecstasy is a human word to describe a physical term. (ST: No I mean but you are experiencing ecstasy? Isn’t that ecstasy?) I experience nothingness, which is total joy and bliss. (ST: Okay why doesn’t that translate to the body that you feel so ecstatic and smile and…) It would translate to the body if there were a body. But there is no body. (ST: Okay so you’re functioning in this world?) That’s how you see me. (ST: Yeah with this body.) You’re speaking from your experience. (ST: Absolutely yeah, even if I’m not around if you are by yourself you are still functioning through a body?) How do you know if you don’t see me? I’m only functioning as far as you are concerned when you see me. (ST: Huh?) You’re creating my body. (ST: No. If I’m not around and you are all by yourself you still express yourself in you walk around right?) How do you know? (ST: It’s obvious to me.) It’s obvious to you? (ST: Yeah.) That’s your opinion. (ST: No it’s not an opinion. It’s an awareness of mine.) (students laugh) It’s your awareness and it’s what you think. So why should I be doing what you think?) (ST: No I’m not saying that you are supposed to do what I think.) That’s what you just said. That’s what you see and what you believe. (ST: You are denying your body but the truth is that you are a body.) That is your truth. Not my truth.) (ST: No it’s also your truth.) Because that is what you see. (ST: Come on touch yourself, touch yourself.) Of course. (ST: Yeah. So what do you touch?) Nothing. (ST: Oh that is denial. That is denial.) That’s your opinion. (ST: Absolute denial. SJ: I don’t share that opinion with you. (ST: I don’t talk to you either.) (students laugh) R: See what you are doing, you are identifying with the body-mind and you are putting me in your identification. But somebody else would see me otherwise. For instance, if I ask everyone in this room when they look at me what do they see? I would get twenty different answers. Somebody would say, “I see a wonderful human being.” Somebody would say, “I see a sick person.” Somebody would say, “I see a healthy person.” Somebody would say, “I see God.” Somebody would say, “I see a body.” So you are telling me what you see. That’s all. ST: Yeah but there is still somebody there. You say the lights are on but nobody’s home. Is that what you are saying? (R: No that’s what you’re saying.) No but is that what you experience? R: I experience my Self. (ST: So if you experience your Self, couldn’t you be the Self plus the body?) Why, why should I be what you want me to be? (ST: This world is not an illusion it’s real but it’s something that emanates from the whole awareness you have.) Well if I’m not a ??? why should I say that? (ST: Because there is no life to the world and the highest truth as you see it is one. You’re saying it in a sense.) Let’s put it this way. Imagine if you will you are having a dream and we’re sitting like this in your dream. And we are talking back and forth together. And I am saying, “I am not the body, I have no body,” and you are saying, “yes you do.” And then we look at each other and you wake up, what happened to the dream. It was all a dream. The same thing is happening now. All this is but a dream. It appears real. But when you wake up you realize that it’s gone. ST: Practical speaking you are living a life, I live a life. And you are still here. Until the body actually gives up, doesn’t function any more, then you’re gone. R: The body doesn’t give up because there was never a body to give up. (ST: But I bet you Robert that you are going to stick around until your body is not functioning any more.) That’s what you see! If you can only get that clear. That’s the experience you are having now. If you had my experience you would be speaking like I’m speaking. But you are speaking from your experience and you want me to accept what you believe. ST: Yeah I’m not trying to make you accept anything. What I’m trying to say is from an individual point of view as I am it doesn’t make sense to say, “I don’t have a body.” Even if you are in your highest state it doesn’t make sense to me to say, “I don’t have a body,” because everybody can see your body, not just me everybody can see you. R: If it doesn’t make sense to you then don’t say it. (ST: No but you’re saying, “I don’t have a body.” But you really have one.) But that’s my experience. (ST: Well that’s your experience. My argument to that experience is what is the sense to say, “I am not a body” if you really have one?) But that’s what you see. SJ: I think he agrees with you too. It’s his practical experiences that he doesn’t have a body. ST: How come you cannot express infinite joy? (R: I am.) Why don’t you look like so full of joy. (R: Again you want me to be what you imagine it to be like.) SH: It’s a projection of your own false imagination onto Robert. You want him to be what you think someone who is enlightened should be, that’s nonsense. (ST: No that’s not what I am saying.) Yes it is. Exactly what you are saying. (ST: Why isn’t consciousness, the highest consciousness project itself as being something everybody will run after, you know.) SD: But we do. (students laugh) SH: You don’t see that that’s your idea about it. But you’re projecting your idea and insisting on it being valid. It may be a bunch of nonsense. It’s what’s going on in your mind. (ST: Absolutely it goes on in my mind.) It’s your image that you are hung up on and you are projecting it onto Robert and insisting he ought to be the way you imagine he should. SM: You’re getting mad! SH: No I’m not I’m trying to clear it up. This is getting redundant and stupid. We go around and around getting nowhere. (SM: You see Robert where you’re coming from that is all that is. You see everybody from where you’re coming from.) I didn’t understand it before either, but now I understand it. I see Robert from where I’m coming from. I see you from where I’m coming from too, everybody. You are just a reflection. Robert’s a reflection of you. ST: Hold on, I’m not trying to upset your group here. I’m not trying to make an argument against you. I was asking Robert a question what I feel about total bliss and consciousness and in my opinion, I’m just a person I’m not a guru or teacher or nothing like that but as a person I see consciousness to be blissful and uplifting to everybody as soon as you recognize it. SM: That’s words, that’s words, but you can’t see him. ST: I mean total consciousness should be beyond words. (SM: That’s right.) Totally experience it without having to look for it. R: Then you can’t see it. (ST: What?) You will not be able to see it because it’s beyond words, beyond thoughts and beyond space. (ST: So can I feel it?) You can feel it. When you become it you’ll feel it. (ST: Yeah, so, if I feel it then I don’t need to ask questions I don’t need to seek anything but I am it.) Then you should do the practices and you should practice within yourself to be able to feel it and become it. (ST: Yeah but what I’m saying is can this spread like immediately I cannot realize that. There is something there which I really want.) You mean can I give it to you? (ST: Yeah there is something there that I really want, I want to go after that, this is what I really want, what I’m here for.) Then you have to be receptive and you are receptive when you empty your mind, no thoughts. (ST: I mean anybody even if you are not receptive. If you are like an innate object or something that even will start to vibrate and say, “Oh I want to go after this.”) You’re speaking of siddhis. You’re speaking of powers. You’re speaking of a completely different teaching. We’re not trying to give out power here. Or become occult in magic and be able to do strange things. I know what you’re looking for. You are looking for proof. You want me to be like Sai Baba and materialize ash, or materialize a medallion. (ST: What is the difference between you and Sai Baba?) I don’t know? We are all the same spiritually. But this is Jnana. This is Advaita Vedanta. This is not Cashmere… (ST: Yeah.) So it’s a little different to what you are used to. (ST: I’ve been studying both sides. Forgive me but I just…) It’s okay. (ST: In my opinion I just wanted to hear it from you, why aren’t you always smiling or be always in rapture, you know? That’s how I picture beauty.) Who pictures that? (ST: I do.) Who are you?) (ST: I guess as you say, “I’m everything,” right?) But are you? See what you are doing is you are repeating my words. What do you think you are really? (ST: No I know what I’m speaking of I’m just a person. That I know.) So if you are a person then you are an ego. (S: Absolutely.) So if you are an ego you are part of the world. (ST: Absolutely.) And you see what everybody sees in the world. (ST: Yeah.) So why should I become what you want to see? (ST: No I’m not saying that you should become what I want to see.) But you say you want to see radiance and smiles and bliss. (ST: That’s not what the world is.) I know but you said that is what you want to see. (ST: No I want to see consciousness in total freedom and beauty.) What do you see now? (ST: What do I see now? An old man sitting here and talking to me.) Okay, so change your opinion go within yourself and find out who you are. Then you will see me like you. (ST: If I see you as me then there is no more bodies, huh?) You are speaking of yourself now. But if you work on yourself and dive deep within yourself and lift yourself up a little, then you’ll see me as your Self, because there is only one Self. ST: Well that’s a theoretical thing to me. But as long as I have to function my body. I don’t have to deny my body. I know I can say that I am beyond the body true but I also have a body. R: Who said anything about denying the body? I never said you must deny your body? I say you do what you have to do with your body. As long as you believe you are the body then you have to take care of it and you have to be careful of what you do. (ST: Yeah that’s what I have to do.) So do it. And everybody’s happy. (ST: I don’t think I have to wait around for that.) Then do what you have to do. But don’t see anybody else as you. Everybody is different. (ST: Absolutely. I see everybody’s different. I understand that.) So you’re giving your attributes to me. (S: No.) Of course everything is coming out of your mind. Everything that comes, where does it come from? It comes from what you know. (ST: No when we have a conversation what you speak comes out of you and what I speak comes out of me.) Exactly, so you’re seeing the whole class from your viewpoint. (ST: Yes of course.) So you’re saying your viewpoint is correct and that’s all there is your viewpoint. (ST: No I see that you have a viewpoint too otherwise we wouldn’t be talking.) I’m speaking to you to make you understand that you should be silent and go deep within yourself. And everything will take care of itself. (ST: That I understand. I have no quarrels about that.) Then everything will take care of itself. But you’re all right, keep up the good work. (ST: Yeah thank you. Sorry it takes too long.) SF: No you’re totally honest from your point of view. (ST: Yeah.) One of the crucial things that I’ve learned is to ask myself, “What am I assuming?” From that point of view and then I look at the assumption. And I find the assumption from this point of view is false because I’m assuming and I sure don’t see Robert the way other people see me. (ST: Yeah there are all points of view.) And I realize that I come from a very strict point of view. I don’t at this moment know that there is a road outside there. Now you would say half an hour ago I was driving up in my car on the road. But right where I’m sitting I think there is a road outside but I don’t really know it in an absolute sense. I can assume it, that’s not a unreasonable assumption. But most of the assumptions that I had when I looked at it were unreasonable. And maybe you are making some assumptions that you assume for other people and that’s what’s going on. I’ve not really thought about Robert’ smiling too much maybe you would like to do something maybe not. (ST: I did not say that do you understand…) I’m just saying that you know, if he doesn’t smile too much… (tape break) SJ: Robert’s just riding reality and if there is a problem then he has to maybe prescribe something to the best for your silence. After you prescribe silence you just be silence and you get there. From your picture you maybe so many years away from enlightenment and when it happens you probably all of a sudden you see it. ST: I wish, I wish. SH: A dangerous assumption. (students laugh) (general talking and laughing between students) SF: (Student describes experience of confusing vibrations on the right side of the chest (spiritual heart) to stomach vibrations which he thought was the real thing.) R: It’s not stupid at all Fred because it made you realize that it was not the spiritual heart. (SF: Yeah.) Sounds very useful. (SF: But I know my physical heart is not where the stomach is. That is where the vibrations went and therefore the vibration that went back to the stomach couldn’t possibly have anything to do with the spiritual heart.) But all the mistakes we make is not because we’re stupid it’s because it shows us it’s a mistake and we have to grow out of it. It makes us go onward. SF: I was assuming that the spiritual heart was on the other side of the physical heart. That is what I was assuming. If the assumption is wrong the point of view is wrong. Like what is happening here. I did happen to know that the assumption I was operating on because it usually the law. You’ve got to see what the assumption is based on. I have things to learn so I have to see what I’m assuming at this point of view. But I know I’m assuming things and when I come here I’m assuming things. But I know that my assumptions are mine and not his. But I’m expected to dance, it’s okay! (R: Maybe next week huh Fred.) (laughter) SH: It’s okay to have false assumptions they drop after a while. When you see they are false they drop. There is nothing wrong with it. You don’t have to put yourself down for it. SF: No I’m not putting down it just happened. SG: There is a stage when you look at these teachings you examine as being enlightened or not and then there seems to be a point where it doesn’t even make any difference what can enter your mind. R: Well that is true. You are coming here to be with your Self. I am only your Self. There’s no teacher and there’s no student. There is just the Self. Eventually you see that. There is no separation. SH: That bothering made sense. (students laugh) Right on. Bravo. SN: Robert has often said that when you are in a burning building you don’t stop to admire the pictures, you get out as fast as you can. That’s like the Buddhist story of the man who was shot by an arrow. Rather than to pull the arrow out to save himself, he wanted to know who shot the arrow and while he was cursing and booed his father and so on and so on and so on, rather than pull the arrow out to save himself he needed to know the answers to all these questions. And when some intellectual came to see Buddha, they asked him all these questions of the universe, the existence of thoughts all these mythological and morphological questions. And the Buddha sat silent. He didn’t respond to these questions because he knew that the answer to these questions would not change you at all because becoming awake has nothing to do with knowing the answers to these questions. R: That is a good point, Jay. SN: I want to know if you could comment on something Robert, when you are observing yourself and feelings arise is the idea to stop the feelings or just be nonattached? In the same way when thoughts come, when you are observing thoughts the idea to stop the thoughts or to not be attached to the thoughts. R: There are two ways. One is to observe them, become the witness to them and just watch without trying to change things. Even if you do that they will dissipate and become weaker. The other way is to grab them and ask to whom do they come. Who has these thoughts and realize it’s your ego, the I that has the thoughts and then you ask yourself but “where did the I come from?” So you use the method which is more convenient for you at the time of your evolution. SN: This is kind of related to the question I asked last week about samskaras. You said the fan about the electricity cut off the fan continues to spin. We may appear to do the same but in actuality we are not the same the question connected with that in that perhaps if the actions continue if there is no identification we don’t react. R: What you are saying is true and the example I gave about the fan about the power being cut off is for the sake of others. But as far as I’m concerned there is no fan there is nothing going on, there’s no reaction to anything. But when you see a teacher that you are talking about and the teacher is acting in a funny way, yet people say he’s enlightened that’s what you are seeing at that time. So you give the example of the fan when you pull out the plug. But the blades are still spinning the teacher is working out the balance of his karma. That’s how it is to others. But to the one who is experiencing that, there is no karma, there is no fan, there is no working out anything. There’s no existence there’s only consciousness. And consciousness is silence. So the answer would be, if something like that appears for you or you see something like that do not try to figure it out but sit in the silence. SN: Well I’m not speaking so much from terms of observing someone else’s positive vibes. Within my own experience the difference between reacting and identifying. Say for instance if someone dies you react with mourning but you don’t identify with that mourning. (R: You can say that yes.) So I am trying to make the distinction between reacting with the identification whereas some may think that when there is, when one is awake there is no reaction. The point I’m trying to make is it’s not a matter of reacting but a matter of identifying. R: Yes, when I saw a dog being killed. A car ran over the dog and the dog was dying, tears came to my eyes but then the next moment when it was all over it’s like it never happened, it was gone. There was no longer any remorse or anything else. But at the time that it did happen the body had tears. SN: So we should not think that the person who has awakened is just an empty shell of reaction, there’s just no identification to reaction? R: There is no identification but the truth is, nothing like that is really happening. (laughter) SJ: There is not even a question of identifying, there is noone there to identify. SN: I’m speaking from my own experience. I see that when an occurrence happens I observe myself. In that observation I see a reaction and then I see if there is identification. If I identify with that reaction then it lingers if I don’t identify the space is there. R: But you are making it too stretched out. Just look, observe and know who you are, that’s all you have to do. Know the truth about yourself and don’t think whether you are identifying or not identifying and go through all that stuff. Merely realize, “To whom does this come? I feel this. Where does the I come from?” And you’ll realize the I doesn’t exist and if the I doesn’t exist the condition doesn’t exist because the condition is part of the I. The solution is always transcending the I. That’s a good name for a book “Transcending the I.” We’ll have to write a book on it. SH: Got a lot of pissy sayings. The solution is always transcending the I. It’s a very pissy saying. (R: I know what you mean, Henry. You’re okay Henry.) I feel the same way about you. SG: (Questions concerning identifying with the body and it’s elimination) R: As long as you identify with the body and the mind then what you’re saying is true. There is karma and there are conditions and the body came to this earth to fulfill its karmic purpose. But as soon as you transcend the idea that there is a body or a mind and you become no thing then everything else becomes redundant and you become free of the whole thing. So all the works of Shakespeare and William Blake, Edward Carpenter and all these other people, we are finding more of them mystical but they have to do with the body and the mind. It all has to do with I. I am having an experience, I am spiritual, I feel God. As long as there’s an I to feel God or to have an experience then it’s not real awakening. When there is real awakening there’s no I to have any experience. For the I has been transcended. In other words there is nobody there to have any experience. You’re totally free, and when you’re free you don’t feel an individual personality. You feel as if you are the Self of all. You feel your omnipresence. Your personality is gone. So all these voluminous works that have been written are really for the I. I have experienced this and I have experienced that and I have travelled the world and I have searched and searched and I have found this and I have found that. There’s always the I, I, I. It’s so simple to me that if the I goes everything else goes and you’re free. It’s very funny. Now most of us have so many books we read but if you had a glimpse of who you really were you wouldn’t even be interested in reading another book. S: Just reading a lot of books and don’t have any sadhana, huh? (students laugh) R: That’s a good point. Only unfortunately with some people they become real bookworms and the books become crutches. They have a whole library filled with books. And if something happens they have to turn the page in a book to find the solution. Or to memorize certain words. Or to read a certain chapter to make them feel good. But if they burn all the books and they’re left standing naked, without any crutch or without anybody to depend on. Then that will help them more than the books. SU: When you were awakened when you were fourteen, did you read anything after that? R: I glanced through things to confirm my feelings. So I did look through books because I didn’t know what I was. I had no idea what happened. SU: But after you had left Ramana Ashram? R: I still glance at books now. But I do not glance with my finite knowledge. (SU: So it’s just curiosity?) I will see who the writer is and what they’re writing about. I’m not trying to learn anything or acquire new knowledge or acquire anything. But just in the use of the amount of words they use. They take one sentence and they make a really big book. SJ: What about school? R: But as long as you believe that you are the body-mind phenomena it’s very important. All these things are important as long as you are a part of the world. If you do not learn these things at school then you will suffer. You will not be able to get a good job. You will be on a low income rate. So if you’re going to be a part of the world by all means study go to school and learn all you can. In the meanwhile work on yourself until you’ve transcended and become free. SU: What is it that caused you to awaken? Do you know what that is? R: Nothing that I know of. I had no interest in anything except football and boxing. (SB: You were a sort of an ordinary student?) That’s it. Again, I never asked for anything. SH: You had no teaching? (R: Nothing not part of the world.) You hadn’t read any literature? (R: Hadn’t read anything.) It just occurred? (R: Occurred by itself.) (SU: A gift?) R: It appears to be a gift when you look at it like that but I am sure there was a time and a place where I worked for eternity. Somewhere somehow. SH: Why do you think that? (R: Because that‘s what they say.) But who cares what they say? (R: Because it was in the books.) (students laugh) SL: Even though you know everything? (R: I know everything? I know nothing!) (students laugh) Oh come on. (R: Really, I know nothing!) SF: Yeah he means what he’s saying. R: Of course I know everything that I know absolutely nothing! (students talking and laughing) SF: Some people seem to have a feeling that they know everything. It’s a feeling but it doesn’t mean that they know how shoe polish is composed of. There’s a feeling there to learn everything. R: Well not when you transcend there is no feeling whatsoever. There is nothing. (SU: So nothing you feel.) If there were a feeling there would have to be someone left to feel. ST: Are you at liberty to stick around or to leave. (R: Where would I go?) I mean transcending or leaving your body. (SH: As Ramana said, “Where would I go?”) R: That’s true. This is why I always say that you are omnipresent. You are everywhere to begin with. All this is the Self and I am that. So where can I go? (ST: If your body would die you wouldn’t be around for us.) That’s your viewpoint. (students laugh) SF: Robert I had the consideration that if your body left that you would still be with me. (R: You’re right!) I had realization weeks ago that if your body went to China you would still be with me. R: There are many times that I have visions that I am with Ramana. We have a conversation and we take a walk on the banks of the Ganges and we talk. Nothing ever dies. (SU: What are you talking?) About things. (SU: Really?) Like the weather. No really. (SB: You talk about the weather and…?) Talk about anything. SH: Whatever. (SD: About things that don’t exist?) (students laugh) ST: Do you have a choice to stick around forever like you are now? R: The way I am now, I will be here forever because there is no place to be and there is no forever. I am always there. There is nowhere to go and there is no place I came from. But what you’re seeing is this body, so to you it will not be here. As long as you are in the present state of consciousness you will see the body die, and be burnt or buried or whatever. You can throw it in the garbage can. But that’s what you will see. But that’s not happening. For there’s no body who will ever die. What doesn’t exist cannot be burnt or buried. So you should ask yourself, “Who sees the body die? What body dies?” Ask yourself and find out. (pause) So let’s go into the silence now and practice any procedure that suits you. When we do it together there is a higher vibration. (tape ends)