Transcript:
Robert: Someone told me last week, “Robert, you gave a great talk on Sunday, and you will probably attract millions of people.” They were wrong on both counts. First of all, I do not give talks. You have to get to the point where you are tired of listening to talks. Then you will begin to make headway in spiritual practice. As long as you still want to hear talks you have a long way to go before you wake up. It’s not the talk that’s going to do it for you. It’s a click that takes place inside yourself when you are in the right state of consciousness. Satsang is to bring you to the right state of consciousness, without words, just by being, then everything happens by itself. But if you come to listen to a talk it becomes intellectual, conceptual, ideas, words, and that causes confusion. So what attitude should you have? Even when you hear me talk you should not believe I’m talking. You should open your heart and allow your real nature to express itself, and it will, if you allow it to do so. And as far as crowds are concerned, I am not interested in having crowds. I am not ambitious, I have no goals, and I’m not seeking anything. I’m doing what I came here to do. I didn’t plan it. I didn’t say I want to be a teacher, as compared to the electrician, or as compared to a positive thinking teacher, or as a philosopher or a preacher. I’m none of those things. I am nothing. You can perhaps say that I am a mirror for you. What you see in me is what you are. And as you meditate on yourself you will begin to see me as your Self. For in truth there is only one Self. And you are that. Expect nothing, and you’ll have everything. Be spontaneous. Concern yourself only with the present. Forget about the past and do not worry about the future. Be what you are, absolute reality. Now what is absolute reality? It’s really the fourth state of consciousness. There is sleeping, dreaming, and the waking state. That is a limitation for us. But there’s a fourth state, that is called by many names, absolute reality, pure awareness, nirvana, emptiness, many other names. Most people never get into that state in this life, for no one has told them about it. They are satisfied with dreaming, waking and sleeping. That’s like kindergarten. And there are people who are afraid of going into another state because they believe that they’ve got to give up something. They feel they’ll lose something if they experience another state of consciousness. In reality, you do not lose anything. The fourth state is simply extended awareness. It’s like this. Imagine you’re looking through a keyhole and all you can see through the keyhole is someone being killed by someone else. You see a man killing a woman through the keyhole, and all of your concepts revolve around that. That’s how we see the world, through a keyhole. We see a part of the picture. But let’s say you open the door instead of looking through the keyhole. You would look to the left, and you would see perhaps in a previous life the woman killed the man. It’s in reverse. Now in this life the man is killing the woman, and you would understand what’s going on. Then you would go further. You would look to the right and you would see they’re both together again, laughing and having a good time, and you would realize that no one killed and no one kills. It’s all a game. You would see the complete picture. But as long as you only look through the keyhole you’re going to see a limited view of things and you become judgmental. This is why we’re told not to judge, because we only get a limited picture. Everything that you see in your life is looking through a keyhole. When you awaken the door opens, that’s all. You then understand why everything is happening, and where it comes from. This is the reason why Sages remain so calm and they never react to anything. Not because they don’t care. They see the whole picture. The door has been opened for them. And they see the person who wins the lottery and has fifty-million dollars. They earned it, somewhere, somehow. There is no such thing as luck and there is no such thing as chance. And then they see the end picture, when they wake up, they laugh at the whole game. For no one lost anything and no one won anything. It’s like a movie. The movie has a beginning, a middle and an end. And when the movie is over there’s the screen. The screen is the reality. The movie is just impressions upon the screen. All impressions have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most people go through their life as an impression. They react to everything they hear, see, smell, touch and taste. They’re always angry, they’re always mad because they are not getting what they want. This is looking through the keyhole. As you begin to go within, as you take time to forget a little bit about the world, and you begin to ask yourself, “From whence cometh the world? Where does the world come from?” and you begin to investigate within yourself, “Where does my world come from? How did it originate?” As you begin to do this every day, every day, every day, as you begin to question yourself, “Why was I born? Who am I? Why am I going through this experience? Who is going through this experience?” the more you do this, and the less you react to your conditions, the sooner you will awaken. So awakening isn’t something you have to search for. Awakening isn’t something that somebody can give you. Awakening is your true nature. It’s your real Self. You are already awake but you believe you’re asleep. You believe you’re human, that you are the doer. You believe all of your experiences are real. And then, if you go a little higher, you think all of your experiences are karmic. But I say to you there is no karma, and there are no experiences. You are bright and shining just the way you are. But if you want to play the game of karma, you can. It’s a game. Now where did it come from? You created it out of your mind. There are those people who teach courses on karma, reincarnation and they believe that’s it. So naturally you are creating your own destiny. And the joke is you keep coming back again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, having all sorts of experiences, until one century from now, or one billion years from now, you get tired of playing the game. And you say, “Wait a minute. I seem to be going around in a circle. Does it ever end?” And then you finally ask the question, “For whom is the game? Who believes in their humanity? Who believes in their experiences? Who is it that seems to suffer or who is it that seems to be happy?” Remember human happiness and human suffering are two sides of the same coin. There is no difference. You get tired of the whole thing. So you pose the question to yourself, “For whom is this karma? For whom is this world? For whom is this game? Who has to go through these things?” But instead of doing this most people go to psychiatrists, to psychologists, to preachers, to ministers and so forth. They never get the right answer, because those aforementioned people tell you how to deal with effects. You go to a doctor and you say, “My arm hurts when I hold it like this.” So he says, “Don’t hold it like that.” And that’s what we all do. We’re looking for answers from external means, and you can never get an answer to your problems or to anything from the world, because the world changes continuously. One time the answer may be this way and another time the answer may be that way, depending on circumstances, depending on the time. As an example, fifty years ago if you had a cold and you went to a doctor they would draw blood. They would give you all kinds of antibiotics and they would give you everything that was in style in those days. Today if you have a cold they do something else. Everything changes and people who are going to do what’s in vogue at the time, but the real answer is within yourself. The solution is within you. Yet you go about it in the wrong way when you’re looking to solve a problem with another problem, which is your mind. You cannot use your mind to solve a problem, because your mind is the cause of the problem to begin with. And you cannot ask anybody else for the solution, because they are using their mind to give you the solution what they think is right. The answer of course is to know your Self. When you focus the attention on your Self with a capital ‘S,’ the problem becomes resolved automatically. How do you focus your attention on your Self? By asking, “What am I?” or, “Who am I?” Simply ask, “Who am I?” when anything takes place in your life that you wish to change. Do not try to change the thing that is disturbing you. Even if you do it’ll pop up somewhere else. Go right to the source. “What is the source of my depression? I am. I am depressed. Who is the I that is depressed? Where did it come from?” You never answer. You just have a listening attitude when you ask the question. and the answer comes back you say, “The depression comes to me. I feel it. I have it.” Then you have to realize that it’s the ‘I’ that has it, because you just said, “I have it.” So the ‘I’ has the problem, not you. It is always your personal-I that has the problem. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. Just understanding this, awakens you. ‘I’ is not the Self. The personal-I is the ego. So when you say, “I don’t feel good, I don’t feel happy, I am worried,” or anything else in life, even when you say, “I feel good, I feel wonderful,” you’re still talking about your personal-I. And your personal-I is part of the world of duality. Therefore when you say, “I feel good in the morning,” the first thing that comes along that you don’t like you’ll say, “I feel bad.” You do not want to use that method. What you want to say is to yourself, “This has nothing to do with me. I feels bad. I feels good.” That’s not bad English, it’s just showing you how to talk to yourself. I is separate from you. You have nothing to do with I. Just being able to see that resolves your problem. If you will try it you will see I’m right. When you get depressed, when you feel out of sorts, when you feel something is wrong, when you feel angry, or whatever, ask yourself, “Who feels this? I do.” And then realize, “I have nothing to do with myself.” Your perfection is always shining. You are pure consciousness. You are not the personal-I. Let the personal-I have all the problems it chooses. It has nothing to do with you. But observe for yourself, become the witness to the fact that the personal-I has the problem, and not you. That’s all you have to do. Just watch it and look, intelligently, and see where the problem comes from. Then you ask, “If the personal-I has this problem and not me, where did the personal I come from to make me feel that I’ve got a problem?” That’s the mystery. Don’t try to be smart and answer the question, because it’s your ego answering. Ask yourself, “Where does the personal-I come from?” Or you can just say, “Who am I?” or “What am I?” You never answer, yet you will notice something very interesting beginning to happen, when you get to that stage. You’ll notice that you’re starting to feel better, and better and better and you even begin to laugh at yourself. Why? Because you’re going to the source of your personal-I. And the source of your personal-I is absolute reality, consciousness. Which means, of course, that your personal-I does not exist. It never existed. It’s an optical illusion. You don’t have a personal-I. And if you don’t have a personal-I you do not have any of the problems that come with it. This means that you are not the body-mind phenomena. You are not the doer. You are not the sufferer. You are not the person that you think you are. For all these things are attached to the personal-I, and if that goes away everything goes away with it, and you become totally free. Then you begin to feel omnipresence, for your real Self is not personal. Your real Self is the Self as the universe. Your real Self is everything. Everything is the Self. You realize that your body is sort of an impression on the Self, but it has no power of its own. It doesn’t even exist. The Self exists. Consciousness exists as itself and not as the body. Where does the body come from? If the body doesn’t exist, why do I see it? Ask yourself, “Who sees it?” and we get right back to the personal-I. For the answer is, “I see it. Who am I?” You’re back to the personal-I again. Don’t you see? If the personal-I is gone there is no body, there’s no mind, there’s only consciousness. But as long as you believe there is a body, there’s a personal-I. Therefore you cannot say, “I am consciousness appearing as a body.” That’s wrong. Consciousness does not appear as any body. It doesn’t have to. Consciousness is always selfcontained pure awareness. It is something we cannot even discuss, for there are no words to describe it. It’s something you have to find out for yourself. But I can tell you for sure, it has nothing to do with your body. It has nothing to do with your experiences. It has nothing to do with karma. It has nothing to do with your God. It has nothing to do with the universe. It has nothing to do with self-realization or liberation. It just is. And it is beyond our finite thinking. There are no words to describe the infinite. It’s enough that you do away with all your concepts of body, mind and I. Everything will come by itself. Your job is to get rid of the concept of I. Your job is to get rid of the idea that you are a body, and that you are a mind, and that you are a doer. Always remember, what appears to be a body will do whatever it’s supposed to do by itself, but it has nothing to do with you. If you can only see it like that for one day, you’ll be amazed at what happens to you. Try this experiment tomorrow. When you get up and you just open your eyes and get out of bed, do not pay any attention to yourself as a body. In other words, just become mindful, like they teach you in Buddhism. Watch yourself getting out of bed. Watch yourself going to the bathroom. Watch yourself brushing your teeth. What I’m trying to tell you is that your body will do everything without your help. It’s only when you identify yourself with the body, or as the body, that the problems begin. But if you do not identify yourself with the body you’ll be happy. For happiness is your true nature. Really happy. Not happy because something came your way that you like. You will be happy-happy for no reason. You’ll just be happy. You will not go about laughing all the time, or getting hysterical about it. You will just feel an innate joy. Yet your body will appear to go about its business. It’s like the example I gave you of an electric fan. You pull out the plug but the blades are still turning. So when you practice that experiment, and you don’t pay any attention to your body, you’ll pull out the plug and you’re watching your body going about its business. It will go about its business as long as it has to, until the allotted time comes when it falls and drops and you’re rid of it. Or the blades may stop turning before the body falls, and you become totally immersed in the Self. Then it’s a completely different ball game. It becomes sort of difficult to explain, because you are no longer the body, yet the body appears there for people to look at. It seems to be real. But you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is nobody, nobody’s home. There is no mind and there’s no doer. And people who talk to you and say, “But I see you doing. I see you thinking and I see your body.” So the example you give them is the electric fan. You pull out the plug, but the blades are still turning. So you see the body is still functioning. What has happened to you is you have entered the fourth state of consciousness, beyond waking, beyond sleeping, beyond dreaming. You have expanded your awareness. So the point I’m trying to make is this. You do not have to be afraid that you’ll lose something if you go into the fourth state of consciousness. Some people say they have a family and they may think, “Well I’ll lose interest in my family, I’ll lose interest in my work, I’ll lose interest in my children, I’ll lose interest…” it doesn’t work that way. Your body will still be the same as it was before, as far as appearances go. You will do a better job than you ever did in your life. You will be more loving. You’ll be kinder. You’ll have a great compassion as far as your body is concerned. Yet you will realize, “I am the Self. I am is the Self,” same thing. “I am that I am.” It will be very clear to you and you will make your life simple. You will not find fault. You will not react. You will simply be your Self, and you’ll be happier than you’ve ever been in your life. But again, there is nothing you have to give up. There is nothing you have to lose. Some people think you become disgusted with the world, and you become a hermit. That’s not true. Can’t you see, to become disgusted with the world, there has to be someone left to become disgusted. And if there’s nobody home you cannot be disgusted with anything. So anybody who comes to you and they tell you, “I’m enlightened and I hate the world. I have nothing to do with people any longer. I have to live by myself now,” smile at them, and realize they’re worse off than they were before, because there is an I left who is personal. They’re telling you, “I have to be alone. I have to get away from the world and I have to go live on a mountain top.” A self-realized being can be anywhere. They don’t care where they live. They can be in the market place and be just as happy as they are if they’re living in an ashram. It doesn’t make any difference. They’re home wherever they are and they are always filled with joy. They can be in Iraq and get bombed. It wouldn’t matter to them. They get bombed, they get bombed. They don’t, they don’t. There are no preferences. All is well and everything is unfolding as it should. So the question arises, “Why do I have to go to all this trouble so I can become selfrealized?” That’s really an ignorant question. Remember your real nature is light, consciousness, sat-chit-ananda. You’re not trying to be self-realized. You simply want to get rid of the stuff that tells you you’re not. For someone has told you, or you have read in a book, or because of previous sadhana that you have practiced, that to be liberated means an end to the dream of maya. And you have stated what maya is, you realize it’s all illusion, you want it to come to an end. So you put the practice first in your life. Whatever is first in your life right now is what you are. Think what’s important to you and that’s your life, for you have chosen. But if you want to become liberated and awaken to your Self then you will deny everything that has to do with the personal-I, mentally. It begins in your mind. Do not attempt to change things physically. Remember that if you try to change things physically you have to suffer the consequences. Everything begins and ends in your mind. You begin by wondering or looking for the I, where it goes every night when you go to sleep. Where do I go? And from where does it arise? When you first awaken in that instant, there is no I. But as you keep waking up all of your problems, all of your troubles, all of your worldly things, become aware to you. The I is awake. I feel this, I feel that, I feel everything. Where was the I prior to that? Where did it go before I woke up? And as you are falling asleep, the same thing. As you know before you fall asleep, the I leaves you. Where did it go? And you’re sound asleep without the I. As you think about these things, as you ponder on the I, this is pure meditation. This is the highest meditation, following the I to its source. Who needs these worldly things? Who feels hurt when they are gone? And who feels happy when they have them? Watch your attachments. Become aware of what you really are. See what bothers you the most, what annoys you, what makes you angry, what makes you upset. Watch yourself. And always realize, and I’ll reiterate this over and over again, and I’ll tell you about this all the time, always be aware that what is happening to the I is not you. You are not the I. You are consciousness. You are sat-chit-ananda. You are absolute reality, pure awareness. That is your real nature and that’s who you are. You are not the I. And the way you find out your real nature is by following the personal-I to its source. Finding the source from where the I arises, and finding the source where the I sets. As you practice these things you’re practicing pure meditation, and you will be free. Any questions? SF: Robert I have a question. Inquiring “Who am I?” and the affirmation, “I am” which one is more potent or quicker or are they the same? (R: It depends on the maturity of the person. They’re all different, use “I am.”) From my perspective, mentally saying a mantra is better than vocal saying. Is that also crying for “I am?” (R: Mentally saying it is better than what?) Mentally than having to say it aloud? (R: It makes no difference. When you say it to yourself you can say it during the day or when you are around people or everything else. When you say it out loud you have to do it by yourself.) (laughter) SF: Another question I think is important but is chanting more advantageous than listening to music? Like om, or any of that kind of music? R: Again it depends on the person. Chanting is very, very good. The purpose of chanting is to make your mind one-pointed. So you can realize that you are in silence and you are quiet and you’re still and you’re able to sit in the silence. As you know when you chant for about fifteen-twenty minutes or a half hour, you feel very comfortable and very relaxed and very mentally still. Your mind becomes still. Then you can watch your mind more closely. You can ask, “Who am I?” more sincerely after a chant and the question will go deeper into the Self. But when you are doing worldly things for instance coming home from work. You have your mind on the TV and then you ask, “Who am I?” it’s more superficial. It doesn’t go in deep enough. But when you chant for a while and then you say, “Who am I?” or then you say, “I am.” It goes much deeper into consciousness. (SF: So the question is: Is chanting better than listening to the music?) I should think so, yes. Because your entire being gets involved with the chant. SK: Robert, just a question about the loss of body consciousness. It seems that in the morning it seems there is a real body consciousness and as the day progresses then I sort of lose it. R: Well as you observe yourself in the morning being body conscious ask yourself the question, “To whom does it come? Who feels this?” and then it will come to you that, “I feel this.” I feel that I am the body. Ask yourself further, “Who is the I that feels it is the body?” And then the answer will come, “I do.” So you ask, “Who am I?” It always goes back to who am I? And you follow it to the source by repeating, “Who am I?” SK: It seems that it is more clear in the morning, the first half of the day. I’m not saying that I feel it all the time, but I still feel peace in the morning and then if I go on to the afternoon or evening it seems to be less. R: Sure because when you get up in the morning you have just come out of deep sleep and you are in the state of pure reality without knowing it. As you awaken from it you’re feeling the left over of the reality that you were in before. It stays with you so you feel blue and mellow in the morning but as you go into the day you become involved in the days activities. You hear about the war and you hear peoples problems. You pick up the collective unconscious of the human race and your mind really gets involved with the world. So you lose the “who am I?” But if you practice enough and you always catch yourself no matter what time of the day it is. You catch yourself thinking, you catch yourself getting involved in the world and you watch yourself and you ask the question, “To whom is this happening?” You will find that as the weeks and months pass you are becoming more mellow, more peaceful, more relaxed and happier and you’ll make headway. But stick to the practice under all circumstances. Let nothing stop you from practicing. And again if you can’t practice sometime or if you get tired of practicing that method become the witness. Become mindful. Watch what your mind is thinking, become aware of what your body is doing. Become aware of the sensations in the body and mind. Then you can ask yourself, “To whom do these come? Who has these feelings? Who feels this? I do. Where does the I come from? What is the I? Who am I?” And remember always that the whole world is attached to the personal-I. When you abolish the I everything else will go with it and you’ll be free. ST: Robert did you say that when you are in that kind of awareness, you could be bombed or in another view, is it also the case it could be that a leader as Hussein or George Bush could be doing stuff if you not trying to be the doer. (R: Okay so what’s the question?) Well is it possible to be a realized in a position like those people? R: Oh I see what you mean. A self-realized person will never become a Saddam, it’s impossible, because you are purifying your body to an extent. Where what appears to be the body becomes simple, uncomplicated. Your needs are very little. You do not become involved in bombing countries or doing anything like that. If you read the ancient manuscripts of India there have been many kings who were enlightened and they ruled for thousands of years as the stories go and they had peace and love and harmony in the country. So a truly enlightened person their life becomes harmonious, peaceful, joyous. They do not become involved in those things. It’s unnecessary. SS: Are you saying that an enlightened being couldn’t be a leader nowadays because it seems all governments are corrupt or not straight forward. (R: That is what I’m saying you wouldn’t get into that situation. You would have to get involved in the situation.) But it would be beneficial for the world if you have an enlightened being as a leader, right? R: On the contrary because it means forcing enlightenment on others and you can’t do it. You have to allow karma to have it’s way. What I mean is you leave the world alone. The more awakened you become the less you have to do with the world. But yet you are the world, it’s a great paradox. The Self is the Self of the universe and the world, but yet your body has nothing to do with those things. (ST: What do say about taking on karma. If an enlightened being was a leader he could take the karma of the whole nation?) He doesn’t take on any karma because he would never be in that position. SH: But there were enlightened beings before… (R: Yeah.) And they were leaders for sure. SG: In the Gita, Arjuna the great warrior became a leader. (R: Arjuna was a great warrior but Krishna never did anything. Arjuna was a warrior, he was part of the warrior class. He was not awakened.) Excuse me?) (R: He was not awakened. Krishna told him to fight. But did Krishna fight?) He did fight because he was a warrior. (R: Because that is what he was. But he’s speaking of the enlightened person himself. The enlightened person is Krishna. And he didn’t fight.) SH: Arjuna was identified with his Koshotka. (R: Yes.) He had to fight he had no choice? R: Exactly. But a Krishna never fights. (students discuss this.) R: So you will never find a person who is enlightened who gets involved in those conditions. (SG: So what is an enlightened person?) Nothing! (SG: Yeah so that is what I mean he does not contribute either in a negative way or a positive way, he does nothing.) By his very presence he’s a light in the world, by doing nothing, by not acting. SJ: Not to be condescending but on the outside you appear that you are very active. I’ll bring up Delai Lama here. He’s very active. (R: The Delai Lama is a wonderful person so was Ghandi and others. But a self-realized person is always the Self and really does not get involved in anything. But the body may appear to be doing things.) So for example same for the Delai Lama? (R: Yes.) ST: That’s what I meant actually, that was my question. You may be self-realized and still be a Saddam Hussein or a George Bush? (R: No. You wouldn’t be a Saddam Hussein and you wouldn’t be a George Bush.) ST: Why can’t you take on karma? (R: Don’t have any left.) Not personal karma I mean world karma? (R: Because there is nobody left to take it on.) SG: In the world? (R: No in the person, he asked why can’t an enlightened person…) He doesn’t want to take the responsibility that’s not what he is after? SF: There is nobody left in him. SJ: There is no perception of karma because it doesn’t exist anymore. R: There has to be somebody to take on karma. SG: If you thought it that way then the enlightened person because there can be karma for any person? (SH: There is no person there. The person vanished.) The person vanished yeah but the person is there because we see him and he is real. (SH: That is your idea of what you are seeing.) He’s real, he is because if you go and lift the arm there is something there. R: Well that’s your perception. SH: It’s the way you look at it. SG: Well you think it’s everybody’s perception. Each one of us has a different perception… (R: Yes.) …but there is no final word as far as I can see. (R: Find out for yourself.) I beg your pardon. (R: Find out for yourself. Go within yourself and find out.) It’s as if there is a reality that you speak about. And there is also a reality of everyday, people get bored and suffer and enjoy food and die and then. I should like to pay respect to both realities. (R: Well do that.) Do you do that? (R: No you can do that, I don’t do it.) Yes I do that. (R: Good.) One can do that. One can accept the reality that you are speaking about, it everybody’s choice but there is also suffering beings, animals, plants, people, joyful being that I would not want to miss. (R: Well then keep coming back again and again and enjoy it. That’s your choice.) Right, well that’s one possibility. (R: As long as you enjoy the things of this world you have to come back again and again and experience them.) It seems to me that one has to pay respect to other human beings? (R: Of course you do. Noone is saying not to do that. But you are speaking of two different levels.) Yes I see that one level doesn’t fit in with the responsibility of the other. (R: In the relative world you should practice loving-kindness and peace and harmony and happiness, if that’s your karma. But your karma could be that you become a murderer. You can’t tell. That is why I say, not to get involved in the world but to find yourself first. And then see what you do.) You said first well then if I find myself first and I find myself doesn’t exist then I don’t have anything to do. (R: Then you’ll see, then come and tell me. Find yourself then come and tell me what you want to do.) ST: Is it possible Robert that you can say that I have a body and there is a world? (R: Sure you can say that. You can say whatever you like.) What I’m trying to say in my perspective I’m realizing I’m not the body but I have a body and I have a mind. (R: Who has a body? Who does?) I do. (R: Who are you?) I am the background of all the paths of my awareness. (R: That is what you think you are. But you are pure intelligence.) Yeah but you call it that but that’s what I’m feeling that I have to include my body and my mind. My mind can go millions of miles away out to a star. It’s some millions of miles away and I’m sort of making contact of that life. (R: In your mind.) In my mind. Right it’s just my mind but… R: So when you work on yourself and you transcend the mind you’ll be free of that. (ST: Right and I also feel that I am astral projected. What do you say about that?) That is out of your mind. All that comes from your mind. Those are occult games that you play. It keeps you from becoming free, if you keep identifying with the occult world. Go beyond that. (ST: So you say that soul is still a part of the mind.) Yes, the body, the soul, God, extra terrestrials, planets, spirit everything comes from the mind. When the I goes all those things go also. (ST: What keeps you localized?) Your belief that you are the body. (ST: You are not the body and you are still localized?) We’re going back to that game again. That’s your perception. SG: Well it’s good to say well that is your perception but that is still not the final answer. It’s an opinion. (R: Who’s opinion?) Well it’s yours? (R: I don’t have any opinion.) Well you just said that to him, that what you were saying, it was just perception, so that is your opinion? (R: That is his perception I’m telling him but it’s not an opinion it’s a fact. It’s a relative fact because that is what he sees right now.) Yeah so this moment it is a fact for him. (R: But I’m not speaking of any opinions. I’m answering him at his level. That is his perception.) Don’t you think that that is your opinion. (R: No.) ST: So truth, beauty and goodness is a fact of your state of awareness, isn’t it? (R: No.) It’s not a fact? Why then are you making differences, you say a realized human could not be a world leader? (R: I’m making differences for your sake.) But you said you could be anywhere in the market place but you could never be a George Bush or a Hussein? (R: No I couldn’t.) Why is that? (R: Because there is nobody to be that.) SH: That’s the final answer. SG: So there is nobody to be that, so you couldn’t be Michelangelo or Leonardo Divinci. (R: That’s right.) So like, it’s all the same equation? (R: Exactly.) SF: You know I looked up the word ‘relative’ in the dictionary, according to relative sense it’s not really so. My dictionary tells that because relative depends on something else for its existence. The dictionary itself says, “Relative is what it seems to be.” But it has not self-independence. R: Yes. When we speak of absolute terms. It’s difficult to explain. What I am doing is I am trying o answer you on your terms. For you to perceive it. SH: But in your case there is nobody left to be anything period, full stop. (R: I’m totally empty.) That’s right, nobody there. (R: Nobody’s home.) So it’s not possible to be anybody or anything? (R: That’s it. But if I talk like that most people would not be able to understand what I’m talking about. So I answer you on your terms.) ST: I have listened to Jim Kline and he talks in a similar fashion as you do, but he says that he has a body and he has a mind and he uses it when he pleases. R: Good for him. What can I do? SF: Very simple, you don’t have to believe Robert and you don’t have to believe Jim Kline you can go and find out for yourself and then see. (SJ: Yeah don’t believe yourself either.) (laughter) SG: But I think for us to understand everything is tied up to it. (R: Well the point is not to understand it at all.) Kind of. (R: If you understand it you’ve got a problem.) (students laugh) What did you say? There is no problems did you say? (R: No if you understand anything I say you’ve got a problem.) ST: Robert what kind of experience is your daily experience. What’s going on? You still have the senses, you see obviously you are looking at me. (R: Whatever happens is going on.) Yeah okay. (R: Whatever happens at the time.) But you still have the same functions, what are the differences between my body, my body has its functions receiving and sending. It’s like a receiving and sending station. (R: There is no difference between my body and your body.) Yeah, right. You are still functioning, right? (R: That’s what you see. That’s your perception.) No what I’m saying is what’s your experience? (R: I don’t have any experience.) None. (R: No.) Whatsoever. (R: No.) Let’s say your body was in tremendous pain right now. Excruciating pain. (R: What have I got to do with that.) What would it be like for you. (R: My body would be in pain that’s how it appears to you.) No, no, not to me, to you, I mean. (R: Don’t worry about me, that’s how you see it.) But I’m asking you what will happen, what will you experience? If you were in excruciating pain? (R: I experience whatever you expect me to experience.) No. I’m not talking about me. I’m asking you what is your experience? (R: It has to do with you because you perceive me as you perceive yourself.) Are you saying you cannot have pain? (R: There is nobody to have pain.) There is nobody. (R: But the body will appear like it has pain.) (Robert drinks water) SG: Did you feel that water. Did you feel that water touching your mouth? (R: Sure.) SF: It looks very clear to me. May I ask you, “What’s the real question that is bothering you?” (ST: I don’t know what you mean by that?) I mean there are honest questions and there are questions that are not too honest. Really what you are after? I mean what’s your real question, the bottom of the question? (ST: I don’t know I have no statement I’m just here to…) Sometimes we make questions not precisely because we want to know something deeply. We make questions because… SJ: We aren’t aware of what Robert meant by that. (Robert’s speech) SF: …Right that could be the case. (SM: That’s the purpose.) Yeah. SH: It’s incredible that somebody could really be totally, completely dis-identified with their body and their mind (students agree) He cannot accept that and he keeps challenging and asking and asking to try to defend itself. (R: And that’s good.) And that’s where he’s at and that’s great. It’s what we’re here for. ST: I think I’m at the truth, you know. (SH: Of course you are!) R: That’s good. (tape damage) SF: Are you taking some of Robert’s suggestions and working on yourself? (ST: Are you asking me personal questions?) Yeah I’m asking you personal question. (ST: I will refuse to answer that because I’m not here to be questioned.) That’s okay. ST: Yeah but I’m not coming to have any suggestion from you, I’m here for Robert. SJ: We’re all here for Robert and you don’t listen to what he says then what’s the use in keep on going just keep on doing this, you know. Maybe we could wait for Robert outside until you’re ready to listen. R: No he’s only come three times let him be where he is. SH: He can only hear as much as he hears at this point. You can’t rush the process. (R: Of course.) He’s doing fine. SG: Different teachers makes me ask questions why have all perceptions? Or the perception that there is no perceptions? Why not include rather than exclude. It seems to me that the “who am I?” question which is the most profound of all is too improve everything. If you answer the question you have to include everything in the world. And at the end, I don’t know because I have not arrived at the end. It’s not a question of excluding but a question of including? R: See what happens is this. To include something there has to be somebody to accept, or somebody to listen or somebody to argue. But if there is nobody there, there is nothing to include where would it go? There’s no place left… (SG: Then there is no question then?) There is a question for you, yes. (SG: There is nobody there?) There is nobody to answer. (SG: So there is no subject and object?) No there’s not. SG: No subject and object. I was wondering, when that question was first asked, is it known when the question, “Who am I?” which is the basic question of all philosophy, religiology, psychology. When was it first asked because I knew about Ramana Maharshi that he was the first one that asked that question but before him when was it asked? R: It goes back thousands of years when illusion first descended. (SG: When what?) When illusion first descended. SF: Quite a few thousand years probably. (laughter) SG: He doesn’t ask any particular question? (R: Umm?) This one. (R: He knows.) He knows? (laughs) (R: He goes to sleep and he’s happy.) R: Okay let’s become still for a couple of minutes. Make yourself comfortable. Focus your attention on your breathing. Listen to your breath. Become the witness to your breath. (long silence) Peace. Remember to love yourself, to worship yourself, to pray to yourself, to bow to yourself because God dwells in you as you. I love you all. Peace. (tape ends)