Transcript:
Robert
It’s good to be with you again. Always remember what Satsang really is. Some of you come for the talk.
The talking is incidental. It’s “being” that matters. Just being.
Not being this or being that. Just being. Being means consciousness.
Absolute reality. So your being, is consciousness. Some of you also think that means being with me.
But there is no me. So how can you be with me? You’re simply being.
Being with the Self. Being with pure awareness. And still some of you say, “well Robert, you’re pure awareness, and we love being with you.”
That’s another mistake you’re making. There’s no me and there’s no you. There’s just plain being.
And when we come together like this, the being becomes intense. And the so-called humanity becomes transcendent. Therefore bear in mind that Satsang is always being.
Never mind the words. Just to be here is all that is necessary. I was walking in the park this morning.
Here comes the words. With my dog as I usually do every morning. And I meet interesting people in the park.
Some strange people and some interesting. After walking around the park twice, I sat down on the bench. And I do some power breathing exercises.
So some elderly gentleman sat down near me and started to eat a sandwich. He had a book. And he put the book down with the face towards me.
The title of the book was The Bible or the Gospel According to Thomas. So I became curious. I said, “who’s Thomas?”
So he said, “he was a scholar who lived during the time of Jesus. And this book is from the Dead Sea Scrolls. It’s a transcription of the Dead Sea Scrolls. That is hard to get.”
He explained to me that the church that is deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls will not allow the general public to see them. Because it will make an upheaval for the church.
But anyway, after we talked about it, I took the book to look at it. And I opened it up. And I opened it up to a page that was about Isaiah, the Hebrew prophet.
And I just happened to read in the middle and it said, I have not come to bring peace. I have come to set father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother, sister against sister. I have come to teach no-mind.
No-mind. And this was about 3500 years ago. We attribute the no-mind teachings to Zen Buddhism.
So apparently, this was about 1500 years before there was a teaching of no-mind. And that’s what we’re going to discuss today. Isaiah said, quote, “I have not come to bring peace.”
What was he talking about? If you look into the life of every sage, they didn’t come here to make you happy. They came here to take away your so-called human happiness.
They came to show you that human happiness is transitory. It is not permanent. They came to upset you, to upset your lifestyle, not to bring you happiness.
We still have a tendency to believe that when we get into a spiritual teaching, all of our humanhood will improve drastically. If we’re sick, we’ll be healed. If we’re poor, we’ll be rich.
If we have mental anguish, we’ll have joy and happiness. But that’s not a spiritual teaching. Your feelings and your life, so-called, and your body have nothing to do with spirituality.
You’ve got to understand this once and for all. True spirituality goes beyond the relative world. It has absolutely nothing to do with the human condition.
Yet you’ve heard me say many times that your humanhood also improves. So it sounds like a contradiction. But what I meant was this.
When you make the transcendence, when you awaken to your true self, you have no idea what’s going on with the body. You’re in a different dimension, so to speak. You just have nothing to do with the body at all.
Even though you appear as the body to others, even though the body is so-called tangible, even though you may appear to others to become old or fragile or whatever, the sage knows he or she is consciousness. When you use the term consciousness, it transcends everything. Therefore, you’re not the body and consciousness.
You are consciousness, pure awareness, and that’s what you are when you awaken. Now, I know this is strange and it’s paradoxical, but you appear to be walking through the world just like everyone else. But you’re not everyone else.
You’re not human at all. You are of a different world, and this is ineffable. It is only something to be experienced.
When I say you are not the body-mind phenomena, that’s exactly what I mean, literally. You really are not the body, and you’ve heard me say this numerous times. Yet, look how many times today you’ve identified with your body, believing you are the body.
So you can’t say that you’re self-realized when you’re still identifying with the body. And the words are really plain and clear. You have to not identify with the body when you’re awakened.
You have nothing to do with the body. Yet, at the same time, the body goes onward. It continues.
It persists. That’s how it appears. But that’s an appearance.
For the sage, it does not exist whatsoever. There is no body that exists. So, apparently Isaiah was a sage, besides being a prophet, when he said, “I have not come to make peace.”
He speaks like an [abbot does], who comes and seems to make problems in the world, with people, to awaken them. And it seems like in every family, in generation after generation, there’s one person who feels this teaching and steps out of the crowd. Then there’s conflict, because the family doesn’t understand where you’re coming from.
This has been true with Buddha, with Jesus, with Ramana, and many, many others. Who had to leave their families, there was no other way. But, do not take this as a license to leave your family.
If something like that ever happens, you will know. Yet most people who read these books, they want to emulate these sages, so they leave their family, and that’s for the wrong reason. You do not leave your family because you’re not happy, or because things aren’t going your way.
That means you’re still human. Remember Ramana when he left his family, when you read his life story, when he was 17 years old? He didn’t have any enmity with his family.
He loved them. He left them because it was God’s urging within himself to leave and go to Arunachala, where he stayed for the rest of his life. He didn’t plan it.
He didn’t say, things aren’t going well for me with my family. It was all spontaneous. So this is what Isaiah meant.
I have not come to bring peace. We have to understand these things. And in the end he said, ”I have come to teach no mind.”
So again, when you hear a teaching like that, that you are not the mind, and you try to share this with your family, you cannot because they don’t understand. You therefore keep it to yourself, and you work on yourself until you become totally free. At that time, it’s not even necessary to believe your family because there is no family.
There is nobody. There is no mind. There is total awareness.
It therefore makes no difference where you are. You can be in a cave. You can be in a mansion.
You can be in a hut. You can be anywhere. It doesn’t make any difference.
And wherever you wind up, it’s good. But you never plan. You never say, I’m going to do this, or I’m going to do that.
It happens by itself. A good example in our time of this is Stephen Rockefeller. You’ve heard of the Rockefellers.
He stepped out, gave up on his inheritance, and became a Buddhist. And now he spends his time teaching Buddhism all over the world. He had millions of dollars.
He gave it up. He’s happy. He’s at peace with himself.
It was inner urge to do this. He never planned it. It just happened.
So let’s talk about us. Where are we coming from? Take a look at your life.
Only you know yourself. Nobody else does. You know if you’ve got joy within yourself, if you’ve got compassion, if you’ve got love.
And that’s speaking of material existence. I’m speaking of spiritual love, spiritual compassion, spiritual joy, spiritual bliss. Do you have that?
You can’t fool yourself. You can’t imagine you do. How do you see the world?
What do you see when you look at other people? Do other people still bother you, annoy you, make you angry, upset you? Are you always trying to correct others to your view?
Do you want everybody to see your viewpoint? As long as you feel this way, how can you think that you’re self-realized? All those feelings would vanish.
There would be no feelings like that. When you awaken, you become the embodiment of love. You allow people to make mistakes.
You don’t love people because they’re doing what you want. And you don’t want them to do what you think they should do. You leave everybody alone, regardless of who they are.
So you have to examine yourself. Do not try to change the world. Do not try to change anybody else.
But work on you. Realize that the higher teachings of Advaita Vedanta exist in reality. And the way to get there is through atma vichara.
But realize you’ve got to do the work. Yet don’t be angry at yourself. Do not be disappointed.
If a month, or two, or three, or four, a year, one, two, three, four years, even a century passes, and you do not believe you’ve made progress, your belief system has to go. When you practice atma vichara, you do not look at the clock. You forget about time and space.
You become gentle. And you practice. No matter how many times you fall back, it doesn’t matter.
You never compare yourself to anyone else. You never put yourself down. And you never reflect your ego.
And you do not tell too many people what you do. You simply practice. Do your work.
Whatever your work is, practice every chance you get. But you also do not become a fanatic about it. And do not think you’re going to make progress because you practice twelve hours a day.
Time has nothing to do with it. It all has to do with God’s grace. When your time is ready, you’ll become like a ripe orange.
You’ll drop off the tree. And you’ll be done. But do not compare.
Do not even compare yourself with yourself. Leave yourself alone. Simply do the work that has to be done.
And become free. You have to heed these words. And you have to follow the path.
And on the way to awakening, you help others. You’re compassionate. You’re a joy to be around.
You’re loving. You’re kind. Those traits will develop by themselves as you practice.
But yet, on the other hand, try to develop those traits also. In other words, say you’re practicing the spiritual practice. You’re asking, “Who am I?”
And you’re following it through. And after about two or three hours, you get up and you go to work. And you have a car accident because somebody passed a red light and hit you with their car.
Now, if you’re really on the path and you’ve really been practicing, you will not become angry. You will not yell and scream and make a big fuss. You will understand that everything is karmic when you’re not awakened.
Therefore, what has happened is right. You would actually go over to the other driver and say, Thank you. Strange or true?
Because it doesn’t matter. As an example, something happened this morning. I’ve got a friend in San Diego.
She’s a devotee of an Anandamayi Ma. And she was with her for 12 years. She was with her when she died.
And she’s already advanced in many ways. So she had a new Honda. She came down to see my daughter who lives close to me.
Well, she woke up to see that her car was gone. At first, she thought they towed it away. But I told her they do not tow cars at night.
So after checking, she found out someone stole it. Now, the point I’m trying to make is she didn’t react. That’s what’s up.
She laughed about it. And she wished the thief good luck. She hopes he makes good use of it.
Of course, she called an insurance company and they’ll take care of everything for her. But see, that’s the way to handle something like that. Everything that happens to you is preordained.
So what’s the sense of becoming angry? It’s not going to do you any good. Remember, when you feel out of sorts, you become angry.
You’re going to have to repeat that situation over and over again until you become detached, whether it’s in this life or other lives. So forget about reacting. Isn’t it better to ask yourself who reacts, who’s angry, and observe and watch yourself and hold on to the I because you’ll come to the conclusion, I’m angry.
I am angry. Because such and such happens to me. But is I my real self?
The I that is angry, who is that? What is that? That’s my ego.
That’s my mind. It’s not me. So I watch myself being angry and I realize it’s I that’s angry.
I is angry. I am that I. And you hold on to the I and you keep asking the question, what is this I?
Or who am I? Where did it come from? You follow the I to your heart center on the right side of your chest.
That’s the source, consciousness. Absolute reality is your heart. And the I came out of there.
So you have to follow it back in to the heart center. When you really do that, you become free. So every time you have an emotion, every time you think you have a problem, every time something happens, never react.
Really ask yourself, to whom does it come? Who’s feeling this? I?
Where’s the I? Where did the I come from? Who gave it birth?
And you hold on to the I. When you get tired of saying, who am I? Or where did the I come from?
You can change it to I, I. Which means I am that I am. I, I.
That’s how you hold on to the I. I, I. And when that becomes boring after a while you do the I Am Technique with your respiration. You inhale, you say, I Your Excellency Am. I Am.
If you do that enough, without looking for results, without watching the clock, without watching the days go by, and the months go by, and years go by, you just do it, and you leave the world alone. Something has got to give, and you will awaken. Any questions?
[Long Silent 30sec Pause in audio]
Feel free to make any comments, questions. Throw things at me. You can spit on me.
Do whatever you like.
Speaker 2
How is that stuff going at that doctor that you were taking the vitamins from…how’s that going?
Robert
To the doctor?
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Robert
Who’s asking?
Speaker 2
Yea…it was me. I remember one day…[inaudible talking]
Robert
Oh yea…well I have to take it for about a year.
Speaker 2
Yeah. But how’s it going?
Robert
Sometimes….You have to be taking [inaudible] for about a year before you see results.
Speaker 2
Yea. Are you taking all the other stuff too?
Robert
Some of it, not all of it. I’m not a fanatic about those things.
Speaker 2
Yea no, I understand.
Robert
I take them and then I ignore them.
But I drink green slime every day.
Speaker 3
But what all is [glucosanol] supposed to do?
Robert
It’s supposed to build up your immune system and your brain cells.
Speaker 2
This guy devised something specifically for… [inaudible]
[Conversation is difficult to transcribe for a few minutes at this point in audio due to cross talk. Possibly speaking about a form of medical treatment Robert was going through at that time. What is interesting is how Robert remains unattached to the conversation but aware at the same time.]
Robert
Yeah. But particularly your brain cells. And it supplies dopamine to the brain.
Speaker 7
Remember when I was telling you about dopamine and chewing gum?
Speaker 9
Oh, yeah.
Speaker 7
Have you tried it?
Robert
No.
Speaker 7
I gave you a pack.
Robert
Oh, Trident, I forgot about it.
Speaker 3
Oh they have a chewing gum that has…
Speaker 7
No, I read an article that said chewing gum helps your brain to release dopamine, so it could be helpful.
Speaker 3
Oh, I thought you had chewing gum with dopamine in it.
Speaker 7
No, dopamine comes from the brain.
Robert
Actually, you can’t take dopamine itself. It won’t go to the brain. That’s the problem.
Speaker 3
Well, it doesn’t pass that barrier .
Robert
It doesn’t pass. So you have to take something that activates the cells.
Speaker 9
I see.
Robert
The neurotransmitters.
Speaker 7
Neurotransmitters. Yeah.
Robert
Right here, right? [possibly referring to something someone in the room is suggesting]
Speaker 7
I gave you that article that I printed. Did you read that, Robert? That one of the guy down at USC?
Speaker 7
Did you get a copy of that?
Speaker 2
I thought the doctor was going to use… I gave it to you.
He’s supplying you with everything, maybe, as a [test model].
Robert
No, you have to buy the stuff yourself. Why are we talking about this?
Speaker 3
Why not? What else is there to talk about? You said to talk about anything.
Yeah.
Robert
I guess you’re right.
Robert
Okay. Talk, see if I care.
[The conversation goes on for 22 seconds of a Speaker inquiring into Robert’s medical treatments.]
Speaker 3
You say everything is preordained. There are no exceptions to that.
Robert
As long as you believe you’re the body, everything is preordained.
Speaker 3
Well, what if we don’t believe [that something is preordained?]
Robert
Then nothing exists.
Speaker 3
Then nothing is preordained.
Robert
There’s no such thing as preordained.
Speaker 3
All or nothing.
Robert
There’s only emptiness…consciousness…pure reality.
Speaker 3
Beingness. Same thing.
Robert
It’s all the same thing. It’s for the body.
Speaker 3
It has to do with the body mind.
Robert
Where would these things come from? They can’t exist by themselves. There’s no validity to their origin.
It’s like a dream.
Speaker 3
Why do they arise at all?
Robert
They don’t.
Speaker 3
Why do they appear to arise?
Robert
To whom do they appear to arise?
Speaker 3
No one.
Robert
See, there’s a question again. I’m always throwing that question back to you. Because the one that thinks they appear to arise is the problem.
Speaker 3
Right on, Robert. You hit the nail on the head.
Robert
There’s no appearance and there’s nothing arising. But that’s difficult to comprehend when you’re not experiencing it.
Speaker 3
It doesn’t make any sense.
Robert
It doesn’t make any sense. If it made sense, it wouldn’t be valid.
Speaker 3
It sort of smells like it’s true. It hasn’t…[someone is laughing in background making it hard to discern speakers remarks in audio]
Robert
What you’re saying is true because this is what causes us to go on the path. There’s an intuitive feeling that awakens within some of us. And we know that something is there.
So we strive for it. That’s what happens.
Speaker 3
We strive for it and get in our own way by striving.
Robert
We get our…[in audible]…the way. That’s the first mistake.
Speaker 3
But the striving itself is an obstacle.
The striving is an obstacle. But in the beginning stages, we strive to realize that we don’t have to.
Speaker 3
That too has to go.
Robert
Everything’s going to go. Nothing remains. Not even the hair on the chin, the chin, the chin.
Speaker 3
Sounds nice and empty.
Robert
Who knows?
Speaker 4
…a problem in getting attached to self-inquiry? [crosstalk]
Speaker 3
It’s the final attachment.
Robert
That’s actually a good question. If you feel you become attached, then you have to see it intelligently and let it go by asking yourself, who’s attached to self-inquiry?
Speaker 4
It’s like a your cake and eat it too.
Robert
Yes
Speaker 3
I tried, Doug, it didn’t work.
Robert
What did you try?
Speaker 3
Having my cake and eating it too.
Robert
Oh. If you like cake, that’s not okay.
Speaker 4
But you sort of get rid of your attachment by questioning your attachment.
Robert
By asking to whom it comes. Everything that comes up, you ask yourself, to whom does it come? And that’s how you get rid of it.
This can go on endlessly, but you keep it up. What else have you got to do?
Speaker 3
Endlessly? Do you really mean that?
Robert
Whatever you’ve got to do.
Speaker 3
There must be an end?
Robert
There’s no beginning. So how can there be an end?
Speaker 2
Robert, is ah…I don’t do self-inquiry that much at all.
Robert
You don’t? Throw him out. [Group laughter]
Speaker 2
I have a question.
Lately, I find occasionally being in the mind, and then if I use self-inquiry, inquiry brings me right back really quickly, like automatically, back into a state of [inaudible]. But my question is, should one use self-inquiry… does the state eventually become totally permanent when there is no mind existing whatsoever to bring one slightly in to the mind experience?
Robert
Well, when you awaken, what do you need anything else for? All these processes are for people who are not awake. Once you awaken, what do you have to practice self-inquiry for?
Speaker 2
Well, I don’t know that’s why I’m…
Robert
Of course not. You don’t. You don’t need it. Who needs it?
Self-inquiry is for the ego. If there’s no ego, there’s nothing left. Who’s to practice?
Speaker 2
So when one just gets to the state where the duality creeps in in some way, then to use self-inquiry in those times…
Robert
Of course, if the duality creeps in, you practice self-inquiry.
Speaker 2
Isn’t there a point where…
Robert
No, something in you will tell you. You will know. You will know where you’re at by the way you react to life’s vicissitudes.
Speaker 2
No, I have a really good understanding…I guess, you answered the question. Self-inquiry… when you’re in that state, you don’t need anything else. There’s nothing else.
Robert
Of course, like meditation. Who meditates? The ajnani .
And once you’ve passed that stage, does God have to meditate?
Speaker 3
Who’s He?
Robert
Whoever. Pure awareness, OK? Does consciousness have to meditate?
Speaker 2
So what happens is there’s some kind of awakening, but it seems to take to deepen or, I don’t know what, stabilize?
Robert
No, there’s nobody to really awaken. You never awaken. Awakening just is.
Speaker 7
It’s more like you disappear, isn’t it?
Robert
Like you never was.
Speaker 3
Awakening is and you arn’t.
Robert
When you get to that point, there’s nobody to awaken. You’re just pure being. And that’s what you are right now. Pure being. But you won’t accept it.
Speaker 3
Why wouldn’t he?
Robert
He doesn’t want to. He wants to play games. You want to play hide and seek.
You hide yourself and you go seeking it. And you say, there you are, and it eludes you again.
Speaker 2
Well, at this point, there’s never total, whatever you just said, whatever it’s called. It’s never away. Yet once in a great while, I experience it today.
I don’t know how to describe it other than just the mind starting to get into the mind or something. Or maybe just starting to identify with the mind rather than being in that place all the time. And then if I just immediately do self-inquiry, I promise I’ll do that today.
Robert
And what happens when you do self-inquiry?
Speaker 2
Right back into this state of non-duality.
Robert
No, you’re not in this state of non-duality.
Speaker 2
Why?
Robert
Because you wouldn’t be doing self-inquiry.
Yeah. But you’ve lifted yourself up to a place of peace. But it’s still human peace.
Speaker 3
There’s still duality there.
Robert
There’s still duality, yes.
Speaker 3
Then how can there be peace?
Robert
There’s human peace. Human peace, human anger.
Speaker 8
You’re still identifying with it.
Robert
Yes, you’re still involved in your humanhood. Because whenever you get into a real awakening, there’s silence. Quietness.
There’s no one doing anything. Because there’s no one left to do. The two have been eliminated.
Speaker 3
Then that’s true peace.
Robert
That’s true peace.
Speaker 3
And you never leave that state.
Robert
If you leave that state, it will never go away.
Speaker 3
That’s the state that you were permanently in.
Robert
Who knows?
Speaker 3
You do. Who will if you don’t?
Robert
Because I’ve got nothing to compare it with.
Speaker 3
You have no way of knowing. There’s no you in that state. There’s just that state.
Robert
That’s it.
Speaker 3
Full stop.
Robert
That’s it.
Speaker 3
So when you say, you in that state, it’s a misnomer. It’s wrong phrasing.
Robert
Exactly. If I were to say, I’m in this state, I’d be lying
Speaker 3
[Laughing] That would be lying. You’d be a fake then.
Robert
That’s right.
Speaker 6
How would you put it then, if you could, would you say that your humanhood is gone?
Robert
There’s nothing to say. Because there has to be someone to voice that.
[14 seconds audio cut out]
Speaker 6
Robert, when doing self-inquiry, it seems like there’s a… who is angry, I am angry. That also seems okay by itself… Sometimes there may be sort of a praying inward toward peace or quietness and who and toward That. It seems they’re such different kind of experiences. I think of them as both I-I, sometimes come up with saying, this can’t be the same I. This can’t both be I.
Robert
As you continue to practice, this small I will eventually merge into the big I. And everything will take care of itself. You just be the observer and just watch what’s going on.
And if it comes to you, grab hold of it and ask, to whom does it come, no matter what it is?
Speaker 6
Whom does it come, seems like a direct path home.
Robert
Yes. And then you’ll say, it comes to me.
I think this. It comes to myself. Then what is this my?
Who is me? Who am I? And you never answer.
And you wait a little bit and then you ask the same thing. Who am I? Who is I?
And you wait and then you ask the same thing. And if anything else comes up, you go back to the beginning. To whom does it come?
No matter what it is, it makes no difference what it is.
Speaker 4
It seems like when I do that, it’s very difficult to get a real authentic question. I mean, someone calls up on the phone and says, who was that? Who called?
I mean, I’m really interested. But then I say, well, who am I? It’s real hard to get a real question mark at the end of it.
It has to be the same kind of inquiring as I would to a question normally.
Robert
Because you’re allowing your mind to rule you. In a gentle, peaceful manner, ask yourself the question.
Speaker 4
But it seems to be a different quality of questioning of other questioning.
Robert
Then ask yourself to whom is it a different quality? Who thinks this? Who has these thoughts?
All thoughts must go. The mind must stop and become quiet.
It seems like it’s a question. When you ask a regular question, you’re kind of looking for an answer. This seems to be a question where you’re not particularly looking for an answer.
Robert
That’s right.
Speaker 4
So that seems to be the difference.
Robert
You don’t want to answer. No answer whatsoever is necessary. The answer will eventually come by itself.
Speaker 4
But you could also want the answer.
Robert
If you want the answer, it won’t come.
Speaker 3
Is a negative answer okay? Like, who am I? I’m not the body.
I’m not the mind. And leave it at that?
Robert
No, because when you say, I’m not the body, I’m not the mind, you’re voicing an opinion. It’s better just to ask.
Speaker 3
But the opinion is true.
Robert
I know, but you don’t know it. So your ego is voicing the opinion. It’s better to pose the question and say nothing.
Speaker 5
The purpose, Robert, is to slow down the thoughts, right?
Robert
To slow down the thoughts, exactly.
Speaker 5
Whatever comes, comes.
Robert
Whenever it comes, you ask the question again. To whom does it come?
Speaker 6
But to say that you want the answer, I mean, that doesn’t have to imply a verbal answer.
Robert
It’s the ego wants the experience. It makes the ego stronger. It reflects the ego.
Speaker 6
Even if the experiential answer reflects peace and quiet?
Robert
Yes, even then. Because when you pose the question, like Roy just said, the mind becomes quieter. But if you have a need for peace, that’s thinking.
And that’s a thought. The thought has to go. By inquiring, to whom does the thought come?
To whom does the thought for peace come? Everything has to go. The mind has to become empty, totally emptiness.
Speaker 4
It seems to have this other quality, a sort of rhetorical quality, like when you ask… someone does something, you ask , well, who do you think you are? And that’s like when I do something, I say, well, who am I?
It sort of has that… who do you think you are? That quality to it that seems to quiet the mind down.
This having a general conversation.
Robert
Whatever works for you is great. If that quiets the mind, by all means, use it. The whole idea is to quiet the mind.
Make yourself thoughtless.
Speaker 3
Is it okay to use the repetition of I am the breath?
Robert
Yes.
Speaker 3
And then shift it into the who am I occasion? Yes. It sort of comes naturally.
Robert
Yes, There’s nothing wrong with I am.
Speaker 3
I am. Well, but who am I?
Robert
Good, that’s good.
Speaker 5
Robert, it seems that when the self-inquiry goes deeper, Diego may get more sophisticated and may render states of bliss, blankness, self-emptiness, in which there is still an observer. And people may confuse that they are advancing, making an advance in that.
Robert
That’s possibly right.
Speaker 5
Whereas when really somebody is tapping or hitting the Self, that has such a radical quality that there will be no doubt in the one who experiences or experiences when it happens.
Robert
You’re right. When you experience the real Self, you’ll know it. If you just experience a sort of emptiness, that’s not the Self.
So go further. Go beyond it. Inquire to whom does the emptiness come.
Who’s feeling emptiness? As long as there’s someone left to feel emptiness, it’s not that. The feeler has to go.
The observer has to go. The observer and the things observed have to go. So if you’re still able to observe emptiness, that’s not a realization.
Speaker 5
Or observing any so-called state.
Robert
That’s the same thing.
Speaker 2
What about memory?
Robert
That’s all spontaneous. That’s all part of your being.
Speaker 2
I’ve had an experience where I remember something someone said to me.
And when I remember…I felt as if I went into my mind or such, and the mind went into self-inquiry. I don’t know, something like that.
Robert
It’s just like a question we talked about last week. When someone asked me if I see people or if I just see space, it’s the same with the memory. As long as this body appears to be, it has to function.
So you have a little memory here and there. You see people just like everybody else. And you appear quite human.
But I suppose the difference is I realize what this world is. It’s a no-thing. It doesn’t exist at all.
Of that, I’m sure. But otherwise I appear just like you. So if I didn’t have a little memory left, if I weren’t able to function like a human being, you wouldn’t see me at all.
I’d be gone.
Speaker 4
Memory is necessary to continue the existence of God?
Robert
Is it necessary?
Speaker 4
Yes, if you imply that, it would seem as though you’d be gone.
Robert
By gone, I mean I will be the same as I always was, but you will not be able to see me.
Speaker4
The body would disappear?
Robert
It wouldn’t disappear but seem to die, that would be your appearance.
That’s how you’ll see.
Speaker 7
Do you realize what you always was?
Or what you always are?
Robert
Do I realize? Say that again?
Speaker 6
Well, I…You said something and…
Robert
What? You mean if I give up the body?
Speaker 6
Yeah, you know who that is…like life, or the consciousness.
Robert
Well, as far as I’m concerned, I’ve got nothing to give up. Because there was never the body to begin with. So I am the same yesterday, today, and forever. There’s nowhere to go and there’s nothing to do. There’s just plain consciousness. And I am that.
Speaker 4
It’s your simplifying it, isn’t it?
Robert
[It’s your doing.]
Speaker 3
But, isn’t it, Robert, that it seems that the way we see it, there is an interrelation with this dream from the Jnani, when he has the body as compared to…that’s the way I suppose, when the body, quote-unquote, leaves the body, when the jnani leaves the body. It seems that the relationship with this dream is…Is he still aware of that?
Robert
He’s been aware forever. The Jnani is always aware.
Speaker 3
Right.
Robert
And the awareness never changes. He’s aware with the body or without the body.
Speaker 3
So within this dream, we still see that the Jnani relates to this dream….
Robert
That’s how you see it, yes.
Speaker 3
But also when the Jnani seems to abandon this body, that still continues, even though we are not aware of it.
Robert
Exactly. Nothing changes for the Jnani. The change is in your perception. There’s nowhere to go and there’s nothing to do.
Speaker 4
Does Jnani still have dreams?
Robert
Sometimes. While he has the body, you mean?
Speaker 4
I mean, when he goes to sleep at night, does he have dreams?
Robert
Hardly.
Speaker 4
Visions?
Robert
Hardly. [Sometimes.]
Speaker 4
Just traces? Or is there a dream?
Robert
Slight traces. But there’s no difference in dreaming, awakening, and sleeping. It’s all the same.
Speaker 4
The same as deep sleep?
Robert
It’s being awake in sleep.
It’s the state of awakened sleep.
Speaker 4
Awake in deep sleep?
Robert
Yes.
Speaker 4
Jagrat Sushupti?
Robert
That’s it.
Speaker 4
Ah.
Robert
Exactly.
Speaker 8
Is it the same like lucid dreaming, where you are aware that you’re dreaming. Is that sort of an akin analogy to enlightenment?
Robert
The Self is the witness in the dream state, the waking state, and the deep sleep state. So the Self appears to be going through it. But he is always aware of all three states.
Speaker 2
When you say the Self is the witness, really we can’t understand what that means because we can’t think that the self is witnessing these states.
With our understanding of witness, it’s only being in these states, in the presence of these states, but it’s not aware of it in the sense that we understand awareness.
When you say that we are consciousness, we are awareness, we are bliss, we have no understanding of what these words mean according to what you’re saying because we only understand it in terms of ourselves, our own understanding.
And when you say awareness, we think of awareness according to our own experience, but what you’re referring to is beyond our experience.
Robert
Okay?
Speaker 8
You’re going to have to put us in the state.
Robert
You are!
Speaker 4
You’re always already there.
Robert
It never was a time when you were not.
Speaker 4
But we’re dreaming otherwise.
Speaker 2
But isn’t that true though?
Robert
It’s true for you.
Speaker 2
You gave a talk last week that we can’t understand what these words mean, consciousness, awareness, bliss. It’s ineffable, as you said. So if we try to understand it in terms of our own conception of awareness, it’s not that. It’s something other than that.
Robert
That’s why you should become still and just pose the question, to whom does this come? That’s all you have to do. Do not get involved in so many words.
Speaker 5
Sometimes, Robert, I experience dreams that it doesn’t really matter if the dream is a happy dream or a nightmare. There’s a witnessing that goes on, that’s witnessing the dream. Is the witness that similar?
Robert
In a way. But you’re still observing all these things with your mind. Your mind is still active.
And as long as your mind is active, it’s not in a true state.
Speaker 5
Would that be like a Sattvic state?
Robert
Yes.
Speaker 5
A dream state?
Robert
Yes.
Speaker 5
It doesn’t really matter what’s going on.
Robert
No, you have to go beyond all that. Ask yourself when you wake up, to whom has this come? Go beyond everything. Okay, let’s become still again. Go through the I AM meditation now, with the respiration.
When you inhale, say I.
When you exhale, say I am.
If your mind wanders, gently bring it back.
[Audio cuts out then back in]
Om, Shanti…peace…peace.